The Sense I Am Itself is a Play - 15th April 2016

Therefore, when we point to awareness, what is the purpose of it? To point to awareness, when we say, 'Are you aware now?' it is for that which is playing as if it is a person in this realm, for it to play the game of recognition of what it truly is. If anything is confusing, stop me. And if everything is confusing, stop me, because I know that some of you have been in satsang ten, fifteen, twenty years and still we have this kind of confusion that remains. Yeah, give him the mic anyway. Come here.

I just want to ask why you say 'playing the game.' Playing the game of what? You say playing the game... did I say like an 'I'?

Yes, same way. Okay, so stay with me, we'll get to that point. So it's clear that awareness could not be the one that is brought to here. That is clear or no?

Yeah, I mean, I guess. Okay, we will... I don't know that yet.

So this awareness, which we say is the unborn, undying, untouched, unconcerned, unlabeled one, yeah? So if it is all of that, then obviously it is not being helped in satsang in any way. Yeah, that? So awareness is just aware of this entire... I call it a play. I'll gently explain why I took... just so I can tell you guys why I'm confused.

Because if you call it the play, you say sometimes you play or you're done with the play and you find... come back. But now you're saying the play to recognize. So I feel like the play is when you're not trying to recognize. When you're trying to play, you're playing the life game, and then when you're done with the play is when you want to recognize. That's not of the... I don't know, like in this, it's very easy thought.

No, no, it's good. We'll look at this in detail actually, because today I really want to get into this because there is confusion about this. So let's stay with what I am saying. So awareness is aware, nothing is changing for awareness, yeah? We see in every satsang that the person does not exist, yeah? The person does not exist. So then we would not be spending all of this time trying to guide that one which does not exist. Yes? Yes, yeah. So awareness just here is no help to anything at all. The person does not exist. So then the question, which is very valid: then what is a satsang? Yes? Then what can be the trouble is that when we only say that all there is is awareness, which is ultimately true actually, and the person never existed, therefore nothing at all is needed, no conversation at all is needed, even this seeming contribution is not needed.

Right, from that... yeah, from there.

But there is nothing else for there to be a something which is not the ultimate. That means we must bring our attention to that which seems to be playing as if it is not the ultimate, as if it is relative.

Yeah, I mean, I guess people like me fall into perspectives that are less ultimate, more relative, so yes, actually.

If you are talking about an appearance in this realm, then we cannot really refer to it as the ultimate anyway, because this realm is the realm of conditioning. There is no expression, true expression, of that ultimate, non-existent, non-phenomenal absolute which can be found in this realm of phenomena. This entire realm is a play of phenomena. Okay? Yes. And also then to just presume that, 'Okay, I am non-phenomenal,' which is an absolute truth, can sometimes become the denial of this appearance of this relative realm. Yeah? Okay, I know it's a bit sticky. What I am simply saying is that although the truth is always that I am this non-phenomenal awareness, yet to deny the appearance of the dynamic aspect, the phenomenal aspect which arises within me, can become a very strongly egoistic mental standpoint.

If you just say like a mantra that it's just always this awareness, all is this absolute, that can play out... how that manifested here when I was under this affliction, in a sense, was that the manifestation of this spiritual jerk, which anyone would come in front of me and say, 'This is what's happening to me and this is what my day was like,' like when my wife would come and say these things to me, I would say, 'But who are you? You don't exist.' So I can tell that conversation would not go well down here because, as I said, although everything you're saying is true, you're still being a jerk. And this jerkiness comes from sticking only to ultimate perspectives and refusing to acknowledge the existence or the appearance of this realm, which is consciousness. And yet the denial of consciousness can only happen within consciousness. Awareness cannot say there is no consciousness; awareness is not interested in saying that. So even the denial of consciousness happens only within the realm of consciousness. Yeah? It will have to be within here, whatever.

So there must be this appearance of this dynamic aspect, the sense I am, and within which the ability to say 'I am not.' Even to say 'I am not' first must presume the existence of an 'I am.' I know I am being a bit tricky today, but we must look into these things because even to say 'I am not' needs 'I am.' Exactly. How would you say 'I am not' before there being an 'I am' which is not? So this leads to a lot of level confusion, in the sense that we're trying to speak about that which is the ultimate reality from a place of denying the relative appearance of this phenomenal realm within the phenomenal realm. If all that we knew to be true is the ultimate reality, then I don't feel there would be any need to speak in the phenomenal level. But you still speak.

Exactly. So that is now what we are coming to. So what is then the point of satsang? What is the point of this sharing? So for me, I would rather hear... rather than denying the phenomenal appearing, let us look. And nobody can deny that this appearance is appearing. Really, with integrity, can we deny this appearance is appearing? No. It can be said that 'I am not in this appearance,' but we cannot say this appearance is not appearing, because even to say that would be within the appearance itself. So now that this appearance seems to be appearing, how does the play of appearances go? It goes with the picking up of conditioning that 'I am a person, I am the body, these are my relationships, these are the things I want and these are the things I don't want, this is my life.' All of this conditioned play, playing as a person, is the usual appearance in this realm.

And how it also usually appears is that when one is tired of playing as a person... I'm coming to answering your question finally... when one is tired of playing as a person, then the next stage of this play, this Leela, starts, which is the play of freedom. The play of freedom is nothing really happened to consciousness. Consciousness, when it started playing as a person, did not actually become a person. Okay? So it played the play of the person. And then as a final game of the play of the person, it is playing the game of dissolution of personhood itself. Yes? So it is this dissolution of personhood which is the ending of the play as the person. And yes, that which is this I-am-ness which is here cannot be denied, because I cannot say I have stopped being. Because I discovered I am not a person, being is still here. The denial of being can only be within being. So then you continue to play as consciousness, as God. So you move from playing as if you are a person to moving to play just as consciousness or God itself.

But when you say you play, do you feel like you're playing or is it... I'm speculatively asking, but I want to ask, do you feel... so you say you are playing as God. Are you playing as God or God is playing and you're just kind of there?

It depends on what you're calling yourself. So if you say that I am awareness, then you can say that I am the witness of God's play. But in...

So you move from playing as if you are a person to moving to play just as consciousness or God itself. But when you say you play, do you feel like you're playing? Or is it—I'm speculatively asking—but I want to ask, do you feel so? You say you are playing as God. Are you playing as God, or God is playing and you're just kind of there also? My friends, on what you're calling yourselves, so if you say that I am awareness, then you can say that I am the witness of God's play. Yeah, but in a sense, the sense of 'I am playing'—is that sense there? I'm playing for them. I am sense to lumens. So you have the feeling that your name... yes, the sense that I am itself is to play. The sense that I am itself is to play. So 'I am' stays, and this world of appearances are dancing for the 'I am' that itself is to play.

Now, but you're no longer playing as a person. But if you think it, does it feel like, 'Oh, I'm playing as a flag, I'm playing a video game or something?' No, not yet. I dance. I don't get it. I don't... but it finds playing okay. So let's replace the word playing. Yeah, so let's say that God was pretending as if it is a person and playing a pretending in that way, and now the pretense is dropped. But doesn't mean that this world of appearances stops appearing and moving about? So forget play, you see. This aspect of pretending... to not understand your words actually, because I kind of stopped like being able to understand the words kind of a while ago. Yes, like in every satsang, I don't understand anything and I don't even know why I'm asking the questions. But I also know I won't understand, but I just really... I mean, I just know what I feel when I come here and sit. That's enough. And I know what's happening inside it. Okay, so but somehow I want to know this. I don't know why I want to know this right now. Okay, so tell me.

I know this feeling. I know this feeling from direct experience. So when I say, 'Can you stop being now?' is it something to understand in that?

So you ask me the question and the question goes inside and something, something happens. It's like almost like somebody puts another camper into a fire here. It's like that. And I feel if you click it, it's something burns again, becomes nonsense, lights up and it feels real or whatever. Okay, and that's all I can say. But the answer is one can use... I don't know now. I don't know.

You must try to stop being. You try to stop being. Don't be. Don't be. Can you not be? So just a second, it's important.

Oh, it's... I don't know. I don't want to say anything from my experience, worried about sounding silly already to something. I don't think something racing good.

Can you stop being? But you want to get an answer like a long experience, you see, from your own experience. Can I stop being now?

I can't. I can't. But I find it hard to say this because there is nothing substantiating my response. Like, I usually try to speak when I have something to substantiate it, like something to prove that what I'm saying is true. What I'm just saying, it's like it feels like I'm zero.

We don't need any secondary evidence, just a direct evidence that I try to stop being and yet being is still here.

Yeah, it's here. Being is here. I don't know if I can stop it. I don't stop it. I took a question, I try to stop it.

The point is not to stop it or not stop it. The point is to bring you to the experience that the being is here.

Yeah, here. It's here.

So that's all that needed to be understood with that. Okay, so you are coming to the direct experiencing. The mind could still be saying, 'But I didn't understand what happened.' Yeah, when we were actually... what I was saying is that idea of understanding as in this conceptual understanding, and we are going, we are keeping that aside and coming to the direct looking. So you say being is here. No mental concept can come bring you to this point where authoritatively you can say being is here. It can only give you the practically. Can you tell me if I'm experiencing it or not?

You are experiencing. Everybody is. Nobody... so when I say yes, yeah, am I lying? Why am I telling the truth? If you were lying and you would have been able to stop being, you cannot really. I am... am I just speaking like a conceptual spiritual ego online or whatever? Am I just... I don't know. Am I fake? Am I real? Like, I don't want to be... I don't want to just keep coming to satsang and just be a lemon. I like it, you know? Like, I wanted... I wanted... like, I really want to get there and speak honestly, just like a child. Can you stop being? Not so pink.

Why?

Because I think he is they work. My being is... is being, yes. And my heart is beating and I'm feeling the heart beating. I feel like this is me being.

That's right. You can feel that being is being. Does it need the heart to be it to be? But when you ask me this question, if the response is almost like my heart goes boom, yeah, yeah. And yet if that was to stop, would that be the end of being? Suppose even this didn't come to your attention, would it be the end? Is what I feel like right now. My heart stops beating, I wouldn't take this if right now... can you stop being irrespective of what the heart is doing?

How can I separate my heart from my being? It's like saying if my dreams are functioning, then I would stop being. So is it the heart of the breed? Feels like it's the heart. I can't slow down. I can't. I know I can't.

But it's really what I'm telling you. They're looking at conditioning and ideas that we have about ourselves and we are letting them go. So it's okay to look at this, to be held on this like this, yes.

Because the experience of the heart beating is validating my existence. And I can try and go all spiritual and thought 'I am believing it' and all, but no, it really feels like, okay, this is... and this emotion is a lot of emotion around that heart center area and you can feel in the body. I think this is where I am. The rest of it is where the rest of your body is not inside you. It's usually this is where I am. The rest of it is not you.

It's not? Then what is it? Who is it?

Some... it's something else. I'm not concerned about it.

So you are just here?

I just feel like I am in my heart. Like it is an emotion. It's emotional and it also is accompanied with actual physical heart moving.

Yes. So if you are just here, then who would be worried about sounding silly or whether they go to it or some of them here? Just the heart. So don't fight that. Just the heart. Now what else is there? Who else is again who doesn't want to speak from spiritual concepts? Who is it that stops understanding? Midrange example, the heart. And who perceives the heart also? Is that which sees the heart or the head of the heart, is that also the heart?

No.

So that can be also seen. Are you seeing the heart? Even the beating of the physical heart, who is perceiving?

I can't catch that question. Like, it's not this one that can't get that question.

Let's keep that on the side for a while because it's simpler than that, you see. Because the heart is beating, yes or no?

Yes.

That which is seeing that the heart is beating, would that one that is providing you that your heart is beating... no, she is not. Is it not your direct experience?

It is my direct experience.

Okay, so you must be seeing that the heart is beating. You are aware of the beating of your heart, isn't it?

Yes, I am. Yes.

So this one that is aware of the beating of the heart, is that also beating or is it the heart? What is it? Let's silence, silence. Yeah, being comes and goes though.

It comes and goes.

Then who is there to see that it comes and goes? You say it comes and goes.

Let's say I say this out of frustration because I'm always coming back to this place. Okay, we can... and yeah, I'm losing it and coming back and losing it.

And I so... let's let's say like this, okay. Suppose I'm attached to something, okay, and this something is like a flower in my garden or some my rose plant. It has these roses and I'm very happy when it comes, but it goes. It comes and it goes, okay. So I am watching my rose plant. The rose is coming and the rose is going, you see. And that I don't like because it comes and goes. But I must be there to report that something is coming and going. I must know that the rose plant has a rose or doesn't have a rose. Of course, yeah. In the same way, I could say that, 'Oh, that has this beautiful thought about the future, this beautiful image, imagination of what my house will be ten years later,' and I love it. But even this heart comes and goes. Therefore, there must be an 'I' that knows that this part comes and goes, isn't it? In the same way, you could say, 'I have this beautiful feeling of bliss.' Yeah, even this feeling comes and goes. Yeah, and it's always there in satsang. Yes, and then I leave the satsang and it... there it is. But I mean, eventually it goes. It goes. Everything in this appearance comes and goes. But for you to be able to see it comes and goes, that means you must be there to watch the coming and going of it. Can you really say if you were just that feeling or that which actually came and went, then you would go along with it? No, but that's impossible. That's one. Nobody is. Is it just mentally impossible? No, and you are eventually impossible. Let us check any feeling, the coming and going of it. A mind is not there to witness it. You say, 'In the satsang I get these beautiful feelings of bliss and then it reduces and eventually goes.' Am I getting those experiences? Yes, I am. Yes. And yet that which is the witness of these is untouched by them. That which said, 'This is coming, beautiful, very good, very strong,' and then, 'We are going,' is that one touched by it?

Because I get it, I get it, and then I doubt it. I get it and then I doubted it. I doubt every time like a doubting person. Like I doubt now that almost, yeah, I have that tendency from ever. I doubt everything, anything. It's very gorgeous spirituality, so very helpful. Yeah, but it's bad also well sometimes between you and satsang it can be helpful actually.

No, because I don't believe anything. Don't believe anything. No, but it's bad. Don't believe that also because like I get a good experience, I'm like, 'Wait, am I really getting this experience? Is it really happening for me?' I'm ready to use this. I've been mad. I feel like a madman. Don't believe this. Don't believe it is bad that you are mad. All these ads, don't add to yourselves, okay? So don't believe any, okay, including what I'm saying.

Yes. Okay, no wait. Now I have to believe what you say. It's like because if I believe what you say, it overrides my own beliefs honestly, because I'm able to put more trust in your words than my words. So it actually helps a lot. I just say like, 'I believe in Ananta,' and then I'm able to get out of my own head and I just listen to you and it takes me out.

But so if it's replacing prior conditioning with new conditioning, that is all alright. But ultimately even this conditioning must be let go of.

Because I don't want you to be dependent on my belief system. But I am right now. So let's look at how we can even transcend that. This is also... I just want to be with like around you. I just wanted... I keep... I don't know, maybe yeah, because you are it. I can just keep listening to you, you'll take me wherever I need to go. I don't have to do any...

Okay, this is surrender. Very beautiful. But just don't block off anything then. If you trust me, then this remain open to what is being children. Okay, okay, okay. I don't really care what you're saying, I just want to be with him. I kind of do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You read because this is a normal thing that happens with those with a devotional temperament. Am sense, they can fall into this trap which is that he just talking is beauty. So see, whatever, whatever, whatever sense you have, little bit of just a meaning open. Don't say it's just or whatever, just you mean open. Okay, see, I don't get it, but I trust really get me there. Yes, and you will find that those who have come to satsang with even this devotion... the Guarana, when she came first year, knowing just in any of what was being pointed like this, she would just like this is, 'I just want to be with you. I know that I'm safe with you. I can trust you.' Yeah, she came and yet though some just openness to all...

Whatever sense you have, a little bit of just a meaning open. Don't say it's just or whatever, just you mean open, okay?

See, I don't get it, but I trust. Really, get me there.

Yes, and you will find that those who have come to satsang with even this devotion... like when she came first year, knowing just anything of what was being pointed, like this she would just be like, 'I just want to be with you. I know that I'm safe with you. I can trust you.' Yeah, she came and yet through some just openness to allowing things to come and some looking to happen very naturally. And now she speaks about all of this—awareness, consciousness—there's nothing which escapes.

I think it's only because of that actually, because I don't get the other stuff really. I can pretend like I get it and say the stuff, but I feel like it's only because I put my whole being into what you say. I'm like, I'm just going to totally listen to you, and then it automatically happens. It's totally you. Like, that's the only thing that works.

Yeah, it's so clear like this, actually. If someone was to ask me also, and although I can sound like this and sound very advertising like this, but if somewhere I had to pick between being a devotee or being a jnani, I would say devotee. I mean, then being a devotee is not a strong word. Yeah, it's not, no, it's not really that. Everything is my Master's problem, my Father's. Then with that, all these conditionings on the mind—what's going to happen to you, where is my life going—all of that seems powerless.

Yeah, because none of it is my problem. Yes, it is my problem, but none of it is your problem. But I am a bad student. I pick it up again. Don't pick this up! You get rid of it, I get it back. You get rid of it, I get it back. I'm the food student, food store room. Would that be to solve? You say, 'I am surrendered to you,' then don't pick up trying to fix the bio-suit innocence. When I get... because I'm like, 'Ah,' you know, because you have... you went to satsang and I did this and I'm like, 'You're free,' and then you pick it up again. You... that will go to my problem. Then you could not have it go through. It is... this is okay with me, unravel this. It's like you come halfway and I come halfway. I believe that and I did not the way or something like that. Just you can see something really bad.

But the point, the real point is that if you surrender, then surrender everything. There are many variations of half-surrender, and this is one of them. Now, the first variation of half-surrender is that you are the doer now, but I am the experiencer; therefore, why are you doing this to me? Or thank you for doing this to me. But actually, the doer and experiencer must be the same. Sometimes those who are inclined to cry, they will say all the good things: 'Yes, I was very good today, I did all the good stuff, and yet God is doing this to me' or 'My Master is doing these bad things to me.' Those who are inclined towards pride will say that. Those who are inclined towards guilt will say, 'Master is doing this great stuff, Ananta is doing this, you're doing this, but yet I am being so bad.' Then if your Master can do this good stuff, then who is doing the bad stuff? If the Master is the doer, then everything must be His doing. Understand?

Yes, I understand.

So then, with true surrender, when you see that the sense of personal doership dissolves and you can see that everything is my Master's, and then you say, 'My Master and I are one, one, one.' Let that be my problem to deal with. You don't pick up anything about yourself. Let it all... when you take it up with my Father, whatever the mind is saying, take it up with my Father. 'I am being bad, you're not listening'—take it up with my Father.

But I can say that?

Yeah, you can say that. Okay. Even the most... sometimes the fear is that, 'How can I give this to my Father? This is too horrible.'

Oh yeah, yes, I feel that. Yes, whatever you can. How can I entertain you? How can I just put the illness or the responsibility, the blame on you? You can't just make excuses for your life again like that. You cannot hurt both teams.

Ah, then don't give me the good stuff. Or don't give me credit for the good stuff. Then at the end, it's like, 'Come on, how does that help me?' Exactly. So leave both of these to me. If there is a sense that my Master is doing here, then your Master is doing everything. The experience is the realm of the Master. Sometimes you're eating sugar, sometimes you're eating salt. Then you will come to the realization that there is no servant and there is no Master; we are one. Yes, you give up on ideas of servant. Then the most guilt-ridden one, the most shameful one, as well as the most full of pride, the most amazing ones—all ideas of servant must be dropped. Can you take them from... that's what we're doing in satsang.

I don't want to learn it.

Then you don't energize them with your beliefs. Yeah, and especially almost eighty times, say, 'Take it up to my Father,' because I see you are attracted to guilt. Yes, like you want to be right. It's all my problem. No, years of conditioning, right? So let or make excuses, but years of conditioning are nothing for this cup. Cool. If you keep believing that over here, therefore it should take years to go, then it will clear that way. To that which is the eternal one, years of conditioning is nothing but a blink of an eyelid. It is the devotees that have the easiest time of it. So now you see it. Don't become guilty about that, because those who are attracted to guilt will even say, if I say don't become guilty, they say, 'Okay, I'm becoming too guilty,' and feel guilty about that.

Like I want... if there comes a comfort, so I can't even blame anyone else. I can't make an excuse, but I chose that thought pattern. I can even, since I've come to satsang, I can see, 'Ah, at that point I chose that and I continue to run that way.' So yeah, I feel like not running back the other way. I have to run as long.

Now you don't have to do anything. I'm running for you. And this can be a little fearful with mindfulness, but then who are you? What are you to do? Nothing. You.

Thank you. I love you. I love it a lot, really. Yes, no, I really, I really do. I really love you a lot. I'd be totally just lost without you. You, Mooji... I'm always here, even to the cater mostly if you want him. Well, again, thank God for that. Fixing a tangle. I was born in Bangalore. Can you imagine? Wondering if I did something right to be born in Bangalore to dance this dance together. You had to be here. Yeah, thank God for that. Thank God for you. Okay, I love you. I guess I should go. So thanks, and I love you.

But one... now I want to ask Ananta something. Ramana says that consciousness plus waking is waking. Consciousness plus sleep is sleep. Plus consciousness plus waking is waking, okay, is the waking. Consciousness plus dream is dream, and consciousness plus sleep is sleep. So the substratum is always the consciousness. Then he also says that consciousness is like a screen. First, the consciousness projects itself as a human being onto the screen, then the human being actually creates some kind of a play on the screen itself, and then plays that play. That play could be the bondage or the play could be the play of the freedom. This consciousness, what we call as 'I am,' then if it is a substratum, then where does the identification happen? Because the play is only a reflected consciousness, and the mind also is a part of the play, which again is a reflected consciousness. The consciousness is a substratum without which the screen cannot play the movie. Is my understanding correct or not? It is only in the play, but then we say the consciousness is 'I am.' I am saying the consciousness is not 'I am'; it is the existence, while the 'I am' is in the play of the consciousness. Because to say again, the mind has to come in the picture, the words have to come in the picture. It can only come in the play, because when I was sleeping, 'I am' was not there. To say that there was no consciousness during the sleep is not valid because that is a substratum. So the words 'I am' echo, echo, okay? I've been moved by that. I moved myself. The words 'I am' are not 'I am.' Even a child who has not learned any language, it is I-am-ness. So if his or her inability to say the words or report the words 'I am,' does it mean that beingness is not? So although you say that the one said consciousness plus the waking is waking, consciousness plus sleep is sleep, I would say that in this definition, I would replace—because we have to use one consistent set of definitions—we would replace awareness with what you said of consciousness. Therefore, I would say awareness, and then the birth of consciousness, that 'I am,' is the 'I.' Then am-ing, becoming, playing as 'I am' then is those waking state or the dream state. When 'I am' is dissolving and coming back to just the 'I,' then it is the sleep state. Then you spoke about attachments. So when only 'I' is, it is impossible to attach to anything at all, isn't it? In sleep state, can you be attached to something? Cannot be. Then when am-ness appears and it becomes 'I am,' then we have the power of belief, which means what 'I am' is, which 'I am.' And yet we have the power to believe 'I am spiritual,' 'I am a man,' 'I am a body,' 'I am a good person.' All these attributes which can never truly be attached to the 'I am' as being—beingness is just being. We use the power of belief to pretend that we are all of these. This is what is called attachments. So attachments are what? That which we attach through this I-am-ness. So delusion means to pick up these attachments and to play this great game of pretending. And freedom from delusion, of coming to freedom, means dropping all these attachments, all these beliefs which have been given to the 'I am' itself. So all of this is consciousness. 'I am' is consciousness. Now in the presence of 'I am,' the birth of 'I am,' what is the light, what is the screen, who are the characters? It's all this beingness itself, isn't it? So consciousness itself is the light of the projector, it is the screen of the movie, it is the play of the characters. But who is watching this entire movie being played out? That is you. That is awareness. So not to get stuck in the words, though, the labels of these words. But you see, if all of this does not resonate with your direct experience, then check. Is it not true that when the waking state comes, it is just pure presence, 'I am'? Then from memory and new thoughts, we build new conditioning about this I-am-ness. So all that is happening in satsang is the dropping of these attachments that have been attached to the pure sense 'I am' itself. So when Guruji says 'recovering consciousness,' what would it mean? It means just that: consciousness playing as this, associated with all these attachments, coming to unassociated consciousness. This is freedom. Now take everything that has been said against your own direct experience. Don't try to check it against some knowledge or some other reference points and so on.

Can we go through this once more? Can we go through this once more so that... because whenever the going through twists internally, there was still some disconnect. So can you regress me again in?

Yes, we can look at this again. In fact, I'm happy to look at this all the time, actually, because this is what we are really talking about. In sleep state, we say that there is nothing at all. When you sleep, what does that really mean? That the phenomenal world, the phenomenal experiencing, it all dropped. Yet sleep is your own experience; nobody else has to tell you. You went to sleep at 10:30, you know this. So there is awareness even of this nothingness. Then what happens? The dream state or the waking state comes. What is the difference between this nothingness and the waking state? It is that first there is a sense 'I am,' to which the world then appears. It is never that the world is but there is no 'I am.' So this 'I am' comes. Now suppose that this 'I am' had no power to believe anything at all; no thoughts could be believed. Then it will just be being, not attached to anything. Without the power of belief, is it possible to be attached to anything at all? We must check this. Is it possible?

When the dream state or the waking state comes, what is the difference between this nothingness and the waking state? It is that first, there is the sense 'I am' to which the world then appears. It is never that the world is, but there is no 'I am.' So this 'I am' comes. Now, suppose that this 'I am' had no power to believe anything at all; no thoughts could be believed. Then it will just be being, not attached to anything. Without the power of belief, is it possible to be attached to anything at all? We must check this. Is it possible to create some attachment without belief? Can I get attached to anything? You find that it's not possible. Therefore, through the power of belief, 'I am' has the power to give itself attributes, or at least pretend to give itself attributes: 'I am this way, I am that way, I am truthful, I am honest, I am spiritual, I am a seeker, I'm a husband.' You see, all of these are just a basket of beliefs. For each expression of consciousness, this basket of beliefs is unique; therefore, everyone has a unique identity in this realm.

So when we come to satsang, actually, they are tired of picking up these beliefs mostly, and this is the process of coming to unassociated being. We've been associated with all of these attributes that we have given to ourselves, and in satsang it is asked: 'Who are you?' And then the checking of this—all of this prior conditioning—is being dropped away. We are going from 'I am this, I am that, I know this, I know that' into just 'I am.' This is freedom: unassociated being, you see. So the process of attaching is the process of believing. We'll be now dropping all of these beliefs and not picking up any new ones. We remain unassociated as pure presence, 'I am' itself.

Now, in this entire play of attaching and detaching, did something happen to the awareness which is the primal witness of this play? Nothing. It remains unmoved. Just the same as it was in the sleep state, it remains in the waking state, you see. So awareness remained untouched. That's why I said in your example of what you said, I would replace the word consciousness with this awareness, because then it resonates with our direct experience. Sleep can come, waking can come, dream can come; all of that is added on, but awareness remains untouched. The arising of 'I am' itself is called waking. 'I am' plus belief, or 'I am' plus identity, is the play of the person, the play of the ego. We should say, actually, there is the screen, the movie, the projector. Then you find that it is this i am-ness itself which is the light. In the light of the 'I am,' this movie comes on. It is the light, but what is the screen? We check and we see all experiences happening on the same space of being itself, so it is the screen also. Then what are the characters which are appearing? All these experiences, what are they made of? They are also made up of the same being itself. Therefore, consciousness must be the light, the screen, the characters; all the appearances must be consciousness itself. But who is aware of this entire screening, of this entire play? It is you as awareness—untouched, unmoved by anything which is appearing in the play. All right.

Last week you had said that awareness gave birth to consciousness. If consciousness is... awareness gave birth to consciousness, then awareness is, as you had said, the non-phenomenal parent of consciousness. You said that last week. Did awareness create the law of gravity and other laws of physics?

Okay, so this is the question. She says if awareness gave birth to consciousness, what does this mean actually? That is everything with awareness itself. In the sleep state, only awareness is; there is no thing. Therefore, where must consciousness come from? It must come from and be made up of awareness itself. That's why I take the example of water and ice. So this dynamic, more seemingly tangible aspect called consciousness must also ultimately be made up of awareness itself. That's why I say consciousness takes birth within awareness itself and is made up of awareness itself.

Then all these forces, like she said about gravity and the laws of physics... light, sound, electricity, magnetism—do any of them appear when there is no consciousness? No. In the sleep state, none of them are there. There is just nothing; there is no thing. So the birth of consciousness is the birth of all of these phenomenal forces as well, starting with attention, belief, time, space, electricity, magnetism, gravity—all of this. Even physical, biological, all of these forces come into play: evolution, natural selection. All of these, if they are there, then they must come with the birth of consciousness. So all physical, chemical, biological, all of these energies and forces must be a product of consciousness itself, because none of them exist in awareness.

Now, when I say these things, it is not meant to create a sense of duality between awareness and consciousness. It is just for us to look closely at the forces which are at play in this qualitative realm called the world, or our experience, our living experience. So although the ultimate truth still remains that only awareness is, because even consciousness is made up of that, yet we look into these things specifically because we want to look at the play of attention and belief. But we also notice that along with the forces of attention and belief, there are also these physical forces that come into play, like what you said: the laws of physics and gravity. So I would say that they are a product of consciousness itself. Very good.

One last comment to sudden... yes, he is very lucky to live in Bangalore because I'm over here in California and I would love to be right there where you are. I go to Bangalore and attempt to get you here easily. I would say thank you very much. It's almost midnight here as I'm wide awake. Oh, thank you, thank you, Mooji. Thank you, I love you. Love you too, thank you.

Can I ask? Officially, I think I lost the thread which I wanted to ask, but nothing details here. The second question was that even in Mooji Baba's books, he is only saying eyes, broad elements, the mind, but one cannot know God by means of the mind. God illumines the mind. Yes, one cannot know God by means of the mind, but it can turn inward and merge with the God. So can you please throw some light on this?

Yes, yes, yes. So the first part is clear. We just defined it: that everything that appears after the birth of 'I am,' this must be i am-ness itself. Therefore, God is also creating this energy construct called the mind, which is nothing but a bundle of thoughts and similar energies, you see. So the mind is also consciousness. It is, you know, the God—the God which is being referred to here is the consciousness, is the i am-ness itself. Like you create all the gods like Ram, Krishna; they are all within the consciousness. That is an aspect of the consciousness. It has nothing to do with it because awareness is like a sun; it does not matter, actually, where the rays are going. So it is unmanifested. The God, since it is manifested, has to be a part of the consciousness itself.

Yes, yes. So does it mean that this consciousness, this i am-ness which illumines the mind, has within the body? Because when the body is there, then there is an i am-ness. When the sense of the body is there, then there is the sense of the i am-ness. Without the body, there is no i am-ness.

So this again is a dynamic aspect. Well, you can say your usual experience is like that, you see. But actually, you are coming to the discovery that it is the body which is within the i am-ness. And also you notice that many have had experiences called out-of-body experiences where they still feel 'I am,' but it is not within the body, you see.

Oh yeah, I have had out-of-body also.

So what I'm saying is that your real discovery is that everything which is appearing is appearing within this i am-ness itself, the screen of consciousness, like you yourself said. So this mind is also within the phenomenal play of consciousness; therefore, it must be the same light which brings it into existence, you see. So just like the sun cannot say authoritatively—only through secondhand knowledge—only then the sun can say, 'My father was born here and at this time.' Just in the same way, the mind cannot say that being is like this. So the mind can really not fathom or report anything about consciousness; only as secondhand concepts it can report that, you see. From your direct experience, you know that consciousness is here. So this 'I' that knows even the presence or absence of 'I am,' you are this awareness. This is well within the direct experience.

But when you say all the conditionings... what you said is the attachment is of the belief, which I well understood there. Now, the attachment as such, though the mind also plays a part in this initially, because from the mind itself: 'I am this, I am that,' all these belief systems, etc. Is it the consciousness which is believing through the mind?

It is only consciousness that has the power of belief, and consciousness believing the mind is the creation of attachment. So the mind is a tool, actually. The mind is not an entity; it is only a thought. And the belief in the thought means consciousness is living in this thought of the mind, which does not exist as such. It is just a stray thought.

So the consciousness basically feeds the attachment, that is what it means.

That's right. So it pretends to play as if it is all of these things, but really consciousness is just consciousness; being is just being. But it is pretending as if 'I am this' or 'I am that,' which is realized as the play. Why do we say that it is all the play of the consciousness? First to actually, you know, create something and then to transcend it. And so this is a kind of a desire to know itself, and awareness is just kind of an illumination to this consciousness which is the i am-ness. So why is there the need to... because Mooji Baba says 'somehow, somehow,' so he uses the word 'somehow.' It creates basically this illusion so that it is able to transcend it.

But if I close my eyes, I know I am, and I have no intention of creating any play. I have no intention. My direct experience is there is no intention. And this 'I' which has no intention is which one? I am not talking about awareness; I am talking about consciousness itself. Why this game has to be in the waking state? Why this game has to be only in the waking?

I am talking about the one who is saying that 'I have no idea to create, intention to create or not create, I don't want to play this game.' This one is who? You?

I don't know. This one is Anil. It is not a... the person, just the pretend person. Consciousness playing as Anil is saying that, 'But I didn't want to do any of this, I didn't want to create.' But it is the same Anil which wants to transcend, and this Anil will never transcend. This Anil will be transcended. The Anil will be transcended, and it will not transcend.

Yes, I understand, I understand. It is not by direct experience that it is a play of the consciousness. See, Maya... I know Maya. If I had no knowledge from the world, I would not say that I am in the Maya. Frankly speaking, it is for me... hell was better than the heaven. I would not even actually bother about the heaven; I would only consider hell the heaven. Because how do I know the suffering? When we say suffering, actually, because I learned it from outside: 'I suffer, I suffer, I suffer.' This is happiness. Yeah, I know that my true nature is happiness, so I would tend to be happy always. Maybe from there the suffering...

If I had no knowledge from the world, I would not say that I have a... but I'm in the Maya. Frankly speaking, it is for me—the hell was better than the heaven. I would not even actually bother about the heaven. I would only consider hell to be heaven because how do I know the suffering? When we say suffering, actually, because I learned it from outside: 'I suffer, I suffer, I suffer.' This is happiness. Yeah, I know that my true nature, it is happiness, so I would tend to be happy always. Maybe from there the suffering actually emanates, and I know that it is a suffering. Let us say I have absolutely no knowledge, totally blank. My natural state will be the happiness because that is what is my natural state. When there is a disturbance in this natural state, then I will suffer. Now, who will suffer? Which has to transient is suffering? Is it only the game of the mind? Then why do we say that it is a consciousness which is playing this game and it's a creation of the consciousness actually? I'm confused a little bit. Theoretically, I understand everything. Where does the distress in my natural state come from? And if it is a disturbance, but who is interpreting this disturbance as a suffering? There may be a pain in the body, but 'I am suffering.' Who is this 'I am suffering'? Is it the consciousness or the person?

These static abilities is the one. Please get what I... audible? You have... you are nothing at my edges and I can't hear you.

When you were talking to Satya and you just told him like, 'Don't worry about it, like I'll take care of it, like the good, the bad, I'll take care of it.' That was the young boy. I've always felt like Jesus was really close. I've heard that before, and this might seem like a really like silly question, but I just need to know like, like who are you? And like, what's going on here? I need to know what's going on here. I'm afraid to ask, but I have to. Are you Jesus? I don't know what's going on here.

Like your holy presence, your own God presence, your own light of being leaked through this. It's truly nothing extraordinary about this form, with the recognition that you are coming to it at your own heart. The foolproof use of this form taking in this way is to show you that your heart is here, your presence is here, the light of God is here, and to bring you the rest of this. Your own spirit, your own light could use it with your own heart, go with your own hand. God is the one. Patience, as you allow this one to be here more and more, to find one day that as it can speak through this body, it also speaks through your body. Same light. So just like Jesus would say, 'My Father and I are one,' the same way you come into the same discovery. And this innocence is good because he said only the babes will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. We will let go of this shouting mind, a childlike innocence. That happening is here. Yes, you're coming to the recognition of your own Self, of your own presence. And sometimes the words which are here can be confused to be knowledge or something, but they're just mere pointers for you to get to check for yourselves. And if there is some trust, then you trust that I know how much is good for you. And then it becomes too much words, words, words. Namaste.

Sorry, Father, I'm new to G by mistake. Sorry.

We can undo it if you're speaking right there. Namaste. You can unmute them.

Is it okay for me to talk? Yes. Um, I know I don't know how to put this, but I'll try my best. I have this energy appearing all the time. I see you, I look at you, and I know that you are this whole thing, this whole new master's life. But there is a fear, a form of energy which doesn't want me to fully feel it, often resents it. But because of this identity or appearance, I feel like a barrier. But I'd like to release this or expose it in this world, whichever way it happens, that I don't feel this barrier. I feel it as when it comes spontaneous, maybe I hear you speak, it's clarity, and that can be also a line on the screen or it comes out distance.

Some fear can naturally arise as you're getting that with your own presence in recognition of your own being. But the fear can never be stronger than your own being. So let it arise. And the urge for self-preservation is strong, then no fear can hold you back. Let it arise; it'll only be burned in your own being. So the fear appears, the allowing of it, allow it to be released. It's not like a suppressed energy which is holding something at a distance. To hold it at a distance, that's very good for it to come up and to be released. Whatever suppression of energy has been there, which it could be something like believed in lifestyle—pardon me to go out—some kind of belief which has been embedded in our religion or from our childhood that God is out there, you know, and probably you are not worthy of having this term. So I don't know, but mixed up with things, this chamber is in net content. Okay, we don't even need to understand the language. Yeah, don't need to label them, say that this is what it is which is going now wrong. As it is all going, allow it to go. Don't need to label it. Only the truth will last. Only the truth prevails. All the rest is going. Very much thank you.

I love you, Father. I love you. So Mr. Belmont, as fast in heaven, energies from head to the start and back to the earth into the bottom of the class. I love you, Ananta Ji. Thank you.

Oh, you're being like this. Anyone full... I'm sorry, what does he think this is? Daniel, you are always here. All praise, all rhythm to the supreme which is presence down to form. I do to that your Atma. Another technical problem, when you technical problem this have anything to mind doesn't want to believe what I'm sensing, what I'm feeling, what I'm... what idea? What if this? What is this? Please report, and I need this anymore. Actually, this realm, we often say, no, that it's full of contrast. But actually, every aspect of the realm is also sort of content. Like right now in this room, it could be you and this Hangout and visitors online. It could be that one is feeling so blissful and peaceful, and there could be one man feeling like, 'What am I stuck in? Why can't I get out of here?' Just like that, we look at our body and something is feeling like so much love and bliss, and something else is feeling so heavy and distracted. And still enjoy, enjoy, and contrast. Okay, as we get used to these contrasts, then we don't mind them. Then everything is allowed. Then we have no intention also to bring more of something and bring less of something else because we trust the cook that is cooking for us. We trust that she knows the recipes. Diana, I got some chocolate yesterday and one of them looked like it could be wasabi-coated chocolate. It didn't turn out to be, but it is also like this chocolate and wasabi realm of contrasts. Allow everything. It's fun.

Can I talk to you a little bit about all that allowing? Yes, I hear you. Hello. Um, I didn't want to interrupt something. I just want to make sure she's okay. You find my... no, I can fit in. Go ahead. And so there's a few things that have happened with some other Sangha members in our Sangha, right? One posted a video that upset me. Another one... yes, that I posted another video that I thought was indirectly insulting you, and that upset me. So they... what happens with the... as I sort of think, 'Okay, well, it's something that's happening with them,' and I just sort of leave it, you know? Then it comes in front of me and I feel like the space is there to comment, and then I comment about it. And it doesn't sort of take up my thinking time, you know what I mean? If I'm away from it, it doesn't come into the present moment. But if it's there, then I feel like saying, 'Hey, hey,' you know? So I have this in the mind, I have this thing of like, 'You shouldn't be getting irritated,' you know? We have concepts of how we should be. So my concept is that I should be compassionate with what they're going through, patience, tolerance, laughing, you know, all that stuff. And I see you be like that, you know? So then this is my concept. And then another time where this thing of like, 'Well, you know, the whole universe, God, consciousness has made you like this when you're very direct and you can say like, "Excuse me, I can see that you're trying to like take issue with Ananta with your video that you just posted. I just wanted like have it,"' you know? Because it's how I am, you know? And I'm honest like that, and this is how I've been made. So, but I mean, I then like I sort of stop myself from saying it or doing it, but I feel like that's also a concept, but like stopping, you know? Like I feel like I should just like freely write the note to say, 'Excuse me, like I can see what's going on with you, please stop that,' you know? Fast, I can just have to speak it out because I know. And I feel like this, you know, is also a whole... it's not being free, it's not just letting those flows. But I can recognize that the flow is like that there's a higher sort of thing that just will let it all be like you, you know? Like you say, 'Just let it all be.' If I just... I can also just let it be and not... I'm just news past and just, you know, carry on. So I don't know, it raised a question in this, but I just want to discuss it with you because it's coming up last night.

Good contemplation that all of us at the Sangha and even those who are watching us should have together. Because I know and all of you know that for many years, if I said that there is one attachment or one condition that still remains here, it is the attachment to my Master. So I said, 'Do whatever you want, I will not make spears from you unless you disrespect my Master.' It is a clear line that was drawn, and I said it over and over again. But this is my line, and I was conditioning it, attachment, whatever. But I feel what still is, and I'm not going to be in denial of that. Yes, so when that, for example, that video was posted and felt like that line was crossed here, it actually came just like that: 'This is just insulting and disrespectful, and I don't want to... it's just because you knew that this is the line there.' So I feel like you're saying goodbye. So then let it be that way. Let it be goodbye then. So it's said. And I feel that as long as we are communicating like this with integrity, even if it is coming from some ideas we have about ourselves and how things should be, as long as we are communicating with integrity, we are not playing games, we're not being malicious, not political. I feel there's great beauty and just like this. I find great beauty in your expression as Parvati. Yes, it's true. I know everyone cannot be your expression; every expression is unique. But I'm great... I know that you send me also messages when you don't like something, you just tell me, 'This is like this, this is like this,' which starts with seriously questioning my... I enjoy very much like that. So here there's always openness to this check-in, you see? Because anytime you feel like, 'Okay, I have got it and I am special enough now not to receive any feedback from anyone,' then that is troubling. See, that is this arrogance. I like this is also other than the Sangha can be very open that this is what not right, this will simply be like this. And I'm open to accepting because I know actually that in this realm of action, there is no action which is perfect. That there is no action that can happen through here also, anywhere else, which occurs in this way which is perfect. You see, this realm of impulse. So be open to understanding, to learning, to new insight. And I have to say that what you have told me has always helped me. So thank you. So it happened like this that I just... I couldn't just feel like, you know, 'I want to be with this person who posted this video about my Master.' So I just pressed unfriend on Facebook. It was a reaction, I have to admit it was a reaction, because I felt actually hurt by what has happened. And then actually some contemplation happened here that I speak of openness, we speak...

I'm open to understanding, to learning, to new insight, and I have to say that what you have told me has always helped me, so thank you. So it happened like this, that I just couldn't just feel like, you know, this... I want to be with this person who posted this video about my master. So I just pressed unfriend on Facebook. I have to admit it was a reaction, because I felt actually hurt by what has happened. And then actually some contemplation happened here, that I speak of openness, we speak of freedom, we speak of all of these things, so is it not possible to even continue to communicate with this one? Not like pandering of any sort, but just clear communication and say, 'What is it that you felt that you had to post like this, in spite of knowing that this would be something that would hurt me actually? What is it that you felt? What were you trying to accomplish?'

So these conversations actually have been happening with the one who posted this video. So this is like this: when we even admit, 'Okay, that was an initial reaction, but I am open to still communicating with you,' because I don't feel that someone who does something which to us seems like a mistake then should mean that we just close ourselves to them. Yeah, also if it's done, but I still feel like we can say it like, 'Hey, don't do that, you know, it's not cool. I'm sorry, that's not cool.' Yeah, so if someone feels like they have the right to say something—and I also don't even want to make it this particular instance, you know, in any kind of situation—somebody feels like they have freedom and they have the right to say something, or post something on Facebook, or write a message in the chat, you know, then surely I feel like I have the freedom to say, 'Hey, hey, what are you doing? You know, that's my freedom.' You know, and also I'm too... so, but what I want you to discuss with me, and what my satsang is around this is, then I get this thing of like, 'But who are you to say like that?' It's not dry at all, you know, and then there's this whole like... I'm kicking the whole time. There's almost like there's some stopping of the natural sort of behavior, you know?

And I want you... I know that this arrogance I see in myself and I see in each and every one. I want you to tell me, like, if you see something, I just want to come in front of you and say, 'You slash it.' You know, if you see something, please tell me. Like, you know, I want to have... I don't want to be blind to anything. So you just, like, just my head, you know? I don't know how else to say it.

I know what you mean. And actually, I also saw some of your responses and things like this, and there's nothing I felt that I had to chop in that. I did not. Okay, so in this realm, actually, I have not met a single being who's without conditioning. Even when I look at what is operating from here, or all of the beings that I have come across in my life, I've not met a single one who's without any smidgen of conditioning. So those who are claiming to be completely without conditioning, that itself is their conditioning. Using this ultimate perspective itself becomes a conditioning. So there is nobody who's without any conditioning whatsoever. And I don't feel this play can actually continue without any conditioning. There must be some juice here to continue to operate in this way. And it is my promise to you that if I feel that something was coming from a place of specialness and arrogance, I will come and bring it to you. But nothing from what you mentioned, the incidents that have happened in the past, I don't see anything that needs to be specifically pointed out in that way.

Okay, but if you ever in the future see anything, please clearly... I always look at these things together. It is my job. I want you to not be so kind with me, because I can feel your loving kindness, you know? I feel like I have to say to you: don't be kind with me, don't be loving, don't be sparing, you know? Take out your sword. I appreciate your kindness and your love, you know, but I feel in this case to have any tolerance for it would be a disservice, you know? So just if you see it, chop it.

I appreciate that. I appreciate that very much because it gives me a lot of space. Okay, very good everybody. Thanks everybody. Thank you, thank you, thank you. You see, Gagan says, 'Guruji, would you please answer Anu's last question?' Actually, I couldn't register it. It's great to network, maybe next time when he comes you can ask again. But there came a point where it was just... I felt like what had to be shared with him was shared, and the question was just... it's not a judgment or anything, it was just physically not registering. What do you have? Yeah, I just felt like not even not responding; it didn't register at all. I didn't know what to respond, although the words were audible, but nothing was taking hold of the question. So far, I've enjoyed a lot of the contemplations we had together with him, but there just comes maybe one point where something stops. Very beautiful, thank you.

Yeah, silence is also the best answer, although it can be used as a cliché, I know. And I used to get very irritated with these kind of answers, and yet sometimes I'm allowed to say these things. Usually, actually in the last three years, I don't recall times that I have not looked at a question, but sometimes you have to say silence is the best answer. It brought everything to a deeper level, much deep, very, very deep. It shifted it out of the mind to the heart. All the energy in this room, everyone came to the heart because of the silence. Yes, that's in the deep. Thank you. Just as everyone always, always has had the prerogative to ask me any question, this is the same way there should be a prerogative here to not answer sometimes. Yes, that silence is a teaching in itself. And in answer to the question, Ramana Maharshi used to teach in silence. We appreciate it when you interact with us. Yes, if you want, my satsang is all about Ananta, which means infinite, and Ananda, which means bliss. This satsang is the play of these two words. So I'd like everybody to think.

Ananta, Jai Guru Satguru Ananta Ji Ki Jai. Jai. In the time today, Satguru Moojiji Ki Jai, Jai, Jai.

And I love to hear that. That sounds outrageous, my dear. It's good to expose in front of the Sangha, to get it out of you like this. It's a very helpful process. But when you say 'Father,' actually who are you referring to? We're not really referring to Father as this physical form of this body that is sitting here. You're referring to your own holy presence, the Satguru which is within. There is great gratitude here for this Satguru which allows this mouth to be used and this voice. So just to surrender it to your own presence, which is the true master, true Father. This display of bodies is just the intermediary. The relationship, the true reality, is that we are one already. And when you refer to me as Father, I point to my Father. Just the sense of surrender to your own presence, the presence of God which is your own heart. This is what it means. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much, Parvati my dear, for moderating. We can end the broadcast now.