Right Now, Without Any Thought, Who Are You? - 27th April 2016

So what if I've been noticing that I'm happy and I have thoughts about it? So it's they're nice thoughts, but then I'm wondering, am I supposed to bat them out of the park like that baseball analogy that somebody posted, you know? And they feel good. The thoughts feel good and they come out of the natural happy place. It's just like, 'Oh, I'm happy' and 'Oh, and I have thoughts about it.' But if you look at even the happy thoughts, who are they speaking to?

So what happens is we are trying to come out of the habit of believing this voice in our head which is pretending to be my voice. And it's like saying that if I'm addicted to smoking, then can I smoke certain types of cigarettes? What are they called? E-cigarettes or the vapor cigarettes? They are electric, you see. Yeah. Oh, so although they might be helpful, seemingly helpful to come out of the addiction, even eventually even these must be let go of, you see. So if you were to give me the choice and say, 'Between terrible thoughts and happy thoughts, what should I believe?' I'll say obviously believe the happy thoughts. But I have to also say that your happiness is not dependent on happy thoughts, and eventually even these have to be let go of because they are not conveying the truth about what you are. And anything which is believed about the false then has the potential for suffering.

Take an example of a happy thought. Okay, a happy thought is: 'I was at the ocean today and I started to watch the sunset. That was happy. It was nice.' Yes. Now what happens is that the experiencing of the sunset and the ocean was happening irrespective of the thought. And even the joy and the bliss or whatever was coming up was happening spontaneously, you see. But this one imaginary friend, it wants to come in and participate in this: 'Hello, you're nice, you know, we're looking at these things, you're looking at the ocean,' you see? And that's it. And very quickly as we start to buy into this, maybe the next day it'll say, 'Maybe the ocean is not looking as clean as it was yesterday,' you see? And because the happiness was tied to thoughts, then we start to buy thoughts like this also: 'The sunset, isn't the air getting more polluted today than it was yesterday? It has more quality today. Yesterday it was clear, today it's more cloudy. Maybe it'll rain.'

Yeah, it is just like this. The experiencing of the flower, the experiencing of the flies, is the experiencing of the plan. I don't need a thought to experience it. And yet you will notice that the thought will try to come up with its opinions about the flower, which are completely not needed to experience it, you see? So the beauty is experienced and the joy which comes with the experiencing of the beauty is also there. So we don't need the participation of our mind to truly experience any situation in life, good or bad. So we just watch like this. You can see any object and how quickly the mind tries to come in with the interpretation and the judgment about it. And you'll find that the experiencing of the object is not dependent on what the thought is saying about it.

It seems so. I'm not sure if I can put this in words, but like I'm observing what's around me and if there are no thoughts and it's all present like that. Okay, this is nice, everything nice. It's quiet, peaceful. I like my place. I have a lot of freedom in my life, you know. I can go on and on about all the nice things. But there's this like force field or something that just wants to kind of move in and take over. I don't know.

Even the confirmations we don't need, you see. Sometimes it can happen that we look around, everything is just what it is, and the mind will come and say, give you a confirmation: 'Yes, this is so nice. I'm so peaceful. Things are so happy now,' you see? And because we're used to these mental confirmations, something still relies on getting this, and this can lead to some sort of trouble. I'll tell you why. Because I am telling you that you are free now, you see. Usually this is not accepted because we are waiting for a mental confirmation also to come. So he's saying that you're free now. What do you think? The mind says, 'Oh, because he loves you he's saying like this. Something so good. You're not there yet. I saw you outside satsang and you were so angry and you were strict.'

Yes, yes, yes. It's mine. Yes. Yeah, it's just an hour ago something that's happening like that.

Thank you. Because we are used to waiting for mental confirmation for everything, including our peace. So if you buy the thought, 'Oh, this is so nice, it's peaceful,' then we're just giving more and more value to this habit. We are giving meaning to these noises in our head, to this energy. And I know it feels a bit, it's still a bit wobbly, you know? Yeah. By even the positive reinforcement or the affirmations many practice, and we let go of even these positive affirmations, then they can seem a bit wobbly for a while. But it is this wobbliness, this is the doorway to freedom. A little bit of shakiness, if it is happening, it's good actually. In yoga also, they say if your body starts shaking, don't worry about it. It's good. It's a target, you know? Some tendency, some conditioning, something from the past, it's adjusting, it's adjusting. So like this, greenness can come and if the shakiness comes, don't be fearful of it. Good. The mind itself will come and say, 'This is so scary. What's going to happen to you? You can't live without your happy thoughts. You've been affirming to yourself these happy things and that's what's kept you sane' or something, something. It can keep going on and on.

Yes, kept me sane up until now.

Yes, but the thing is the problem is that it's always based on the pretense of you which is not real. And the unreal, the more it is believed in, the more potential for suffering there is. So we cannot be believing our thoughts without picking up the idea that 'I exist personally.' And at the root of all of this—and we must look at this together—at the root of all is the idea that 'I come to satsang to become a happy person' or a certain type of person, a peaceful person, a happy person. This is what I want. Now if this idea still remains, then this idea is also going to be squeezed out of you. And this is not a happy squeezing usually. Because we don't come to satsang, actually this type of satsang, to become happy people. Not to become shining happy people. We come to satsang to discover the Atma which we truly are anyway. It is that which cannot give meaning to this personal existence, although it is not in resistance to it. There's a beautiful allowing of all things to appear and disappear, but it cannot believe itself to be personal in any way. This is the end of suffering and it is here now.

So we reinforce the false idea with our belief, and whether the belief is in happy or unhappy, the belief is always about a person which I believe myself to be. So what is going to happen is that for many of us, what happens is we come to satsang and initially it seems so happy. There is more space, there is more light, there is more peace, and it feels like this is good. But as you keep coming to satsang, you keep encountering me asking you who you are. Who are you? Who are you? You keep encountering this question. And the mind will want to hang on to, 'But I am happy. I am happy as a person now. Why do you keep asking who are you?' And something doesn't like it. There can be some fear which comes with this. Something can feel like some stability is getting shaken up. So that which seemed to give us some happiness, peace personally, there is now seeming to attack this person directly. Seeming to attack this person because this person actually doesn't exist. And my interest is not in giving you some temporary band-aid, you see. I don't want to give you some temporary band-aid until this is good, it feels good. I think also you want to remove this cancer of personhood.

So sometimes it can seem very, very strong. It can seem very crushing to the ego even. And this also must be allowed to get released. But as long as you are believing two voices—one is the voice which speaks in satsang and the second is the voice of this false teacher that we've had inside our head for so long—then it will not be the end of the personhood. It will be the elongation of this so-called spiritual journey. And then a few years later you might be coming to satsang and saying, 'But I've been in satsang for a few years and nothing has happened. I haven't found the freedom. I haven't found myself to be this awareness that you speak about. I still feel like I am Lucia or I am a person.' If you listen to both these voices, then it is a stretching out of this non-existent journey, and it seems to be stretched out in time. Because right now, without any thought, who are you? That is what we are looking at.

And I don't know when you ask that.

No, oh, it's very beautiful. Don't be fearful of this 'I don't know.' No, actually it is the coming from this 'I know I'm a person' though that 'I don't know' which seems more difficult in the spiritual journey for most. Because we are so convinced that we are this name and form that to come to this 'I don't know' seems to stretch out for a long while for many. So if you are in this 'I don't know,' then don't be fearful of this because this is very beautiful. Now this 'I don't know' the mind is very scared of, so it might try to give you...

Don't be fearful of this. I don't know. No, it is the coming from this 'I know I'm a person' though that I don't know, which seems more difficult in the spiritual journey for most. Because we are so convinced that we are this name and form, to come to this 'I don't know' seems to stretch out for a long while for many. So if you are in this 'I don't know,' then don't be fearful of this because this is very beautiful. Now, this 'I don't know' the mind is very scared of, so it might try to give you some candy now. It will say, 'Come back, come back. I'm so glad I have happy thoughts. Will you come?' And this is your... in that, Guru Ji says it is the Mafia. He says, 'I'll protect you, I'm here to serve you, I'm here to protect you,' but you try leaving and it becomes very, very aggressive again. So don't buy into this candy which the mind is selling to you because it is scared of this 'I don't know.' It knows that from this 'I don't know,' a true recognition, a true realization will appear. So it has to take you away from 'I don't know who I am' back into personhood, saying, 'Okay, but now I'm a happy person and that's all I wanted.' It's not true. That's for sure. It's unfair because the work is within that. The work is to discover what we truly are, which is prior and beyond any sense of happiness or unhappiness. It is accepting, and in this accepting and allowing, there can be that truth and peace and happiness, but it's not personal. There's nothing personal about this.

Does this connect to what you've been saying and what you said about 'I was never born'? Yes, you're not... that one's been driving me nuts all weekend because I have a direct experience of that we don't die. Because I communicate with people who were in the physical and who are no longer physically here. I can talk to my father who's, you know, passed on for ten years, and other people. I talk to them, so I know we don't die. Okay, all right, I've got that great. But the idea 'I was never born'—oh my god, what's that about? If you don't die, is it possible to be born? Actually, you know, the question itself, the answer is there. Unless that it can... maybe, but I don't know. I don't know.

Why is it not? Because if this one is eternal, then can there be birth or death for this one?

Mentally I know that. I know the right answer. Mentally, I don't have a direct experience of it.

Yes, actually experience, but we don't have yet the confirmation that this is true because that which we are always has been. You see, that which is aware of all the states which are coming and going, and itself is not coming and going, that is what we most naturally are. That which has seen, even in this seeming lifetime, has seen so many bodies and so many realms and so many experiences have happened. You see, it is waking in so many different brain states, and this so-called waking state, which is just another dream state. And also it has experienced nothingness. No phenomenal appearance has also been experienced so often. So we see that something can be born—the sense of presence, the sense of consciousness can be born and can dissolve—but that which witnesses it is not taking birth or dying.

It seems rather boring.

Yes, but to who?

I'm not sure. I can sort of conceptually step back and experience that eternal being. I can identify, and then it's like, 'Oh, this is so boring. Why would I want to hang out here?'

Yes, so this can be said in two ways. One is a very primal way. You see, if you are all there is, there is no birth or death to you and nothing can ever happen to you. And it is everywhere and you are not phenomenal. Then what's all of this about? Yeah, then why? I say that my favorite season—which is not true, but you have to give a reason to things just because you have to say something—so my favorite, when someone asks what is the point of the creation of this universe, I say because it was too boring. I wanted to make this. So then we created this play, this phenomenal experiencing in which I have pretended to be this person and playing out in all of this adventure called life with all its ups and downs, with all its seeming bondage and freedom. So if you're speaking from there, saying, 'But if I'm all there is and there is nothing actually moving and yet I am here, nothing is moving, nothing is changing, maybe I need to buy a TV or something in front of me.' So this whole phenomenal experiencing is the TV of awareness. The movie screen in which all of this is playing out. Yes, because it's too boring.

But what I was saying earlier, what I wanted to point out and stress on more, because many times as you are coming to the recognition of what you are, the mind comes in with these things, saying, 'But do you really want this? This is so empty and this is boring. You will become a vegetable. You will not have any enthusiasm. You will not have any wonder left in life.' But this is not the actual experience of the sages. They actually find that every moment is full of so much wonder and joy and peace. When we drop all these expectations and fears, guilt and remorse, pride, arrogance, specialness, and all of this is gone, the stories that we have about ourselves are gone and we don't know anything at all, there's so much wonder in every moment. There's so much joy, you see. So that is the voice I was cautioning against, which can compensate, 'But this is so boring.' But the answer is the limit by telling this to watch, watch being boring. But I do know I have met other sages who all are apparently blissed out most of the time.

I actually haven't met anyone who's blissed out all the time.

No, I actually haven't met anyone. And maybe that is great grace because here it's not the feeling of being blissed out all the time.

What's it like?

It's very much more natural than that. Just everything is allowed. I cannot say that there is a strong experience of bliss in every instant. All states are allowed to come and go very naturally, and yet what I see myself to be in reality is untouched by any of these states. And also there is a recognition that everything phenomenal is coming and going. And anytime there is this belief or attachment in something, then it is setting up for failure because I know that this is a temporal field. So if I attach to something here as 'me' or 'mine,' then that is bound to cause suffering because it will come and go. So if I attach even to the sensation of bliss when it comes, it is seen often enough that even this is coming and going. So if I give it the idea that it should always be like this for me, 'Now it is always like this,' then I know when it goes, the mind itself will come and say, 'See, now you lost your freedom.' There is the Buddhist... and that's why I said it is good news that I haven't met anyone who is blissed out all the time, because the mind would say, 'See, this is the true sage, he is always in bliss.' Now what can be a bit confusing is that this state of simple allowing itself, non-resistance, allowing, is a very deep peace, you see. So this peace can be confused to be like a curtain on panels of something. So when the sage says, 'I'm always at peace,' he is not talking about this sense of phenomenal tasting of 'Oh, I'm so peaceful, peaceful.' Not like this. It is so much peace because everything is allowed. There is no resistance.

So this is the deeper peace. Yes, and yes, this is the constant experience even here, except for momentary getting pressed and thrown away once in a while. I have to say that mostly the experience is non-resistant, not personal. Mostly the experience here is not personal and the simple allowing of everything to come and go. And in the deep sense of it, it is enough that apparently it is allowing.

Yes, so if there's an allowing that comes, there's an ease because it's kind of in a ghost.

Yes, ease. Ease is a very good word. I like this word more often. There's a deep sense of ease. It is not a struggle with life. It is not a resisting with agony. I like it. So I guess it was a thought that said, 'Okay, so where are we now?' Look, it's that 'I don't know.' The one who tracks, I guess it's the therapist in me, always wanting to track with Jake. Okay, Jake-man. Jake-man is my arch-nemesis. I have a checker-woman. Checker-woman monitor. She monitors what's going on. 'Okay, so where are we now? Oh, you were a good boy to be a good, good today. You believed only ten times.' What is creating... right? So now there's a feeling that came up of, 'Well, what do I do now?' Whether we, you know, we've had this nice conversation and now what do I do with this new insight? Like I have to go study it. Like when I get off the, you know, having a hangout, that I'm going to listen to this again and study it.

Actually, this happens initially because the strongest leg for the ego is the leg of doership. Without doership, without the sense that 'What do I do now?' the ego actually cannot survive. This table, the table of the ego, just falls down without the leg of doership. So it's very natural for it to try and retain itself there, saying, 'Okay, what is the plan now? What do I do now? This was very nice. What do I do now?' Now, as long as there's a sense that 'I can do something,' then we can do two things. One is we can just not believe and ignore. Second, we can self-enquire and ask, 'Who am I? Who is the doer? Who is the I that should do something?' As long as the sense of doership, which you say is strong, is there, then we can either not believe and ignore, which is what Tim and I could do, but I know it seems like a doing. So we can do this, or we can do the self-inquiry, which is also actually not a doing but can seem like it. So with either of these, then you come to this place to see that there is no doer at all. So the question when it comes, 'What do I do now?' it just becomes laughable. Just like every other thought, it becomes laughable. So it has become laughable. We can just not believe and ignore, or we can just inquire into what I truly am. And the answer is in reverse. I don't know. Is there an 'I' that doesn't know? Because you see, when you say 'I don't know,' what you're actually saying is 'I know that there is an I that doesn't know.'

I don't know. Yes, there is an 'I' that doesn't know.

Okay, so who is this 'I' that doesn't know? It's not 'I,' not actually like this. But this is so heavy. You know, this is just stating because we are used to trying to figure it out with the mind. We are used to trying to figure it out with the mind, and this is unfathomable for the mind. The mind has no chance here. So when the question comes like this, which now seems so easy and natural here, I remember there was a time where a reaction would come: 'But what is this I?' or even 'What is this I am?' It's so frustrating. I just can't find it. I can't figure it out. I know this feeling, and at some level it's good because the mind, this one should give up. The one that is trying to figure it out should give up. And then it's just very simple looking. I know you say, 'I know that there is an I who doesn't know who I am.' To the mind, these words are so complicated. These words are so complicated to the mind. But very simply, it is looking like you saying, 'I don't know who I am,' but right at the beginning there's an 'I' that you know doesn't know who it is. So we know this 'I,' but it is not known mentally. We cannot make a picture out of it. And that is what becomes frustrating to the mind because the mind wants to give us a good answer, maybe a good diagram to go with the answer so that we can get full marks on this question 'Who am I?' It is not a test question like that. It is only an encouragement to look. Not an encouragement to think, just an encouragement to look. Who is it that is here now? Who am I?

Such a strength of frustration right now.

The good thing about the inquiry is that anything coming up can be used in the inquiry. So you say so much frustration is coming. I don't hear that as something bad. Actually, I say this is an opportunity to check: who witnesses this frustration? Is that also frustrated? And now, yes. So are you that frustration? Are you...

Like that, it is only an encouragement to look, not an encouragement to think. Just an encouragement to look: Who is it that is here now? Who am I? Such a strength of frustration right now is with... the good thing about the inquiry is that anything coming up can be used in the inquiry. So you say so much frustration is coming. I don't hear that as something bad, actually. I say this is an opportunity to check: Who witnesses this frustration? Is that also frustrated? And now, yes. So are you that frustration, or are you the witness of it primarily?

Well, at the moment, I am the witness of it, yes.

Now try to not be the witness and become the content. How do you do it?

Well, it's almost like entering back into that. It's like the sensation, this energy of frustration. So it's not like diving back in there.

Don't you do it. Let's see it.

Okay, I can't do it.

Now, you can never do it. It's only an idea that I can do it. The witnessing is just the witnessing itself. It only seemed like I went back into the personal, into the person, but no person has actually ever existed. Our attention can go to this content, but that to which attention is reporting is not fixated with it, is not stuck in it, is not bound by it. It is only the thoughts which will tell you that now you are stuck in this stuff, and you have the power to pretend by believing these thoughts. But in reality, you could never be stuck. If we remove air for you to go, you are here already as that awareness.

There's distractions that come up, like memories, and suddenly instead of me frustrated, there's some memories that pop up.

Yes, but you can use even that. Say this distraction is coming up, this memory is coming up; who is witnessing that? Is the witnessing also distracted? This is everything coming up. I change... this world is dual-purpose. If the urge is to clear the person, then everything that comes up in the world we can use to take personally and to get deeper in the personal idea. But if the urge is to discover who we are, then everything that is appearing in the world can be used to point back at the witnessing of it and to check who is it that sees this, and to come to our true realization of the Self, you see? So same world, same content can be there, but depending on the urge, it can be used differently. But the urge has to be free, for sure.

It's already, no, it's beyond 'I want to be happy' and 'I don't want to suffer anymore.' I mean, I don't want to suffer anymore and I want to be happy, but the stronger urge is 'I want to be free.' I want to know that I'm free, but that way...

Yes, I know this because you cannot come to... my feeling is that if the urge was just on the superficial of little happiness, then you would not be here for the second satsang. After the first satsang, something would get tortured. This idea of person would get so tortured that you will never want to come back to the second satsang. Because you're here so often, I know it cannot just be about some superficial sense of happiness, sense of personhood. Who wants this sense of being happy? It is pure torture to be in the satsang because it doesn't like a question for mind. It doesn't like these things which we are saying, which is that you don't exist as a person, you are truly non-phenomena, and all these appearances don't matter, we don't have meaning. So the sense of personhood doesn't like this. So if you can come again for satsang, that means there must be a primal urge here for some freedom.

But this actually doesn't mean that if you are coming for a few satsangs, does it mean that you will come to the end of... although that is my blessing, that all of you come to the end of your conditioning. But sometimes we cross something, like we might have a spiritual experience or an awakening experience or some spiritual experience, and something says, 'I want to take ownership of this. This was so good. I have discovered that I am God.' So it wants to use that as fresh conditioning. And then, having to come into these kind of experiences, we might get seemingly waylaid from the end of all conditioning because then we start adding new conditioning about ourselves, which is specialness, arrogance, pride—spiritual ego, basically—which is the most common reason people stop coming to satsang, is because they believe they have become special people now. I would go as far as to say that more people seemingly leave satsang because of specialness than actually leave satsang because of true contentment and realization of the Self.

Well, it can also be that there comes a time where all of these words, which seem so blissful and nice, then start seeming boring and dull and same-same. The mind can also come with these kind of resistance and say, 'But he's just saying the same same stuff.' So it comes with this kind of resistance also and says, 'Okay, now I feel you've got enough now. Now you can be independent, you don't need this anymore.' And that can be genuinely true also, but the genuinely true is rare. Mostly it is a mind trap which gets us. Anyway, we'll talk more one day about all the pitfalls which can come to focus on this. Alright, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

Oh yes, you can come with you follow politics after they have... they need to be exposed. I can be online log yesterday, sorry about that. Sorry, Father. I'm going... I said that you have to work hard to get there. You are almost meditating on what was bothering you yesterday so that you can bring it out now. Oh no, Father, I'm all over the form. Any question, it's just a little... it's just an identity which has been adding it. When here, I really feel like a play, but there is some investment in it. And more than the actual playing, when that happens, it's more of a mental torture later to try to push it out or trying to inquire the identity and so... and in the moment that time comes to inquire into that identity, there is a lot of resistance. And just to get today, however, sadhana going to that, you know, not trying to see it.

So in following it up with her, it was very clear suddenly that there was no me. Yes, there is this cuboid. It's like another trap for the... as I'm talking to you that I am feeling, and it's more like, you know, you want to take out the small lighter clearing that the mind is trying to do. But because of the vents from the class of the day of being that are just, you know, trying to cover it up and put it under the carpet also, and just this... it's just getting too much. I just once it's broke now, it's like... but solely and the one who wanted to bore is also the same. It is, it is. Because if I see it just as a witness without really giving us hardened, it's nothing, it's like a play. But it's like a trap and I don't want to indulge in it anymore.

Yes, but don't you touch this 'I' anymore.

Follow that. I am now able to inquire into the moment I do it, just get some... I had scared to touch it, or I don't know. Is it that I need to inquire into it or surrender it or just let it be? It's come to a point of confusion now because it's still there and it's funky, made my face every day. And it's the night not to week that allowing the thought world of surrendering does not work and inquiry not happening. I did surrender either message to, but it just seems to be playing too much. I got up at 4:00 in the morning with that reporter. And for the first time, Father, when you say yesterday, 'the reporter,' in the morning I got up at 4 o'clock with this, the grill exposed reporter with the new 14 oval through on the lines and you know, for everything. It is now so clear that the business reporter is reporting always, and the reporter reporting to the reporter has been reporting all my life. It turns me... it's not only a reporter, it's when those undercover reporters investigated. Maybe you can give them out of breath now. You might even remember business followers versus confusion that the one who was arranging or the one who's trying... I am giving to your Mother, not to Bharati your daughter, to me, Father. Can you hear this song? It means this, this one who's trying to file and who's trying to surrender is also part of the same play. And that that here, but somehow not completely convinced the other database or when you make a do this meditation, something beautiful with rubies and just, you know, in the face of the being, and then everything arising anything like this boiled universe. And I know with all awareness of it, it was a meal, but it was very... oh, it came like a visual chilli. So I found it with the mind, but confused with it. Let's... but something is still pure, but still there is some space. It seems everything as a play. So when we surrender or lightly inquire, then it's in the same place.

Okay, so surrender and inquiry, which are needed mostly, are the only parts of the play where beingness is disassociating itself with conditioning. Or the beingness is coming to the recognition of its source. Most other parts of the play are about things being added, ideas, concepts about a self. It is in the inquiry or the simple surrender that this meaning is being removed and new conditioning is not being there. Very few possibly support stopping alchemy, and inquiry and surrender are direct means for the dropping of this, both for the recognition of the truth as well as the dropping of the conditioning. All that is needed is the self-inquiry, or we can say all that is needed is surrender. Either of these are sufficient.

So what is the meaning of surrender? Let's look at it very closely. So what happens is that the moment, the now, is our best friend. So in the now, I am unassociated presence. I am this right now. This is true for all of us now. Anything that we take on personally becomes a condition on this 'I am.' This can be 'I am being lazy,' 'I am feeling terrible,' 'I have become ugly.' All these ideas that we take on are just pretenses that are being added on to the pure presence 'I am,' which is available right now.

Now what happens in surrender? We say, 'It is all my God's problem, my Master's problem, my Father's problem.' What does it mean? I am not adding anything to the 'I am.' I am not... 'God's problem.' 'I am feeling ugly,' God's problem. 'I am being lazy,' God's problem. So in this surrender, nothing is actually getting added to the 'I am.' No pretenses are being associated with the i-am-ness, and being remains unassociated. So we are discussing something very rare, actually; we're discussing the mechanics of surrender. How does surrender work? Mechanics of surrender are just this: everything is surrendered at the feet of the Master, therefore nothing is attached to me, to the sense of i-am-ness. So then being remains unassociated as being itself, and nothing is taken on to this 'I am.' Therefore only presence remains, and this unassociated presence is completely free. Even with the pretenses it's free, but it is the pretenses that we are getting rid of in satsang.

So if you surrender now and say everything is God's, then your being remains unassociated with all this conditioning, all these concepts, and you are free. This is the end of conditioning. We cannot even act the condition. 'I am surrendered to God.' Nothing must be added to 'I am.' That is true surrender. And what gets added to 'I am' is only these thoughts. Only believing thoughts is the adding of conditioning. So we are unraveling the entire system. The only way to add conditioning is to believe our thoughts. So when I say don't believe your next thought, it means the same thing as surrender. And we take on no burden for our lives if we don't need to believe any concepts about how to run it or what is good and what is bad. And then we see that actually the surrender and self-inquiry are one, because as we are not attaching concepts, yet this 'I am' remains, which is the root of our inquiry anyway. We can also come to the point where you see, 'I am aware of this presence,' which is the highest truth. That's why it is said that ultimately surrender and self-inquiry are one. And this is now our experience also.

We don't need to believe any concepts about how to run it or what is good and what is bad. And then we see that actually the surrender and self-inquiry are one because as we are not attaching concepts, yet this 'I am' remains, which is the root of our inquiry anyway. We can also come to the point where you see, 'I am aware of this presence,' which is the highest truth. That's why it is said that ultimately surrender and self-inquiry are one, and this is now our experience also.

You and Karishma, which is something is falling away. It felt like a concept; it felt like another layer there could...

So now don't attach anything to yourself. No concept attached to yourself. Become concept-free, even from the concept of concept-free. Just follow that.

The question I had, my sins invested not even... thank y'all. Something see and computer as you come to certain, then your perspective shifts automatically to a higher plane and then that would seem so relevant, doesn't seem as important now. You know, it doesn't feel like such a big deal. Joining against this business, the truth, fixing the unsub to make sense at all. Yes, so anything that we attach to 'I am' is untruth. All thoughts are lies.

And if you bottom, so it'll come, my dear. Palak? Palak, can you hear me?

I can do this. So far, at least to follow regarding this witnessing thing, I have a couple of questions like which I kind of like... I have like these burning questions, I would say. So when we have a thought, like, it's already we are with the thought, right, Father? Because does it come as kind of like as a packet, like waiting for somebody to open it? It's kind of already we... it's purely like we are completely with that thought. I mean, I know like what the thought is.

Yes, go slowly. So a thought can come, any energetic appearance can come, and with the coming of it, there is a knowing of it on its own. And yet there is a force or energy called attention which can be seemingly more on it or less on it. So the movement of attention is possible either to external appearances or to the internal appearances like thoughts, emotions. And so the play of attention can go on, and that which attention is not fixated on strongly, that seems mild in our experiencing. And that which attention is fixated on strongly seems like a stronger experience for us.

So it's kind of like there is still like... so for the one who knows that there is a thought, has a power to stay how much he or she wants to stay with that experience? Like having the attention on it or like withdrawing the attention from it? I mean, the belief from it?

Yes, so this is very interesting contemplation. And we were just one of the days we were contemplating this together after Satsang, which is: the power of attention is controlled—is it controlled by beingness or by awareness? And then we see that attention is needed only for the phenomenal expression. So the sense of giving control, the sense of giving more or less attention, seems to belong to beingness. So intimate that it seems to be reporting back to awareness itself. And where the boundary of beingness and awareness starts to blur a bit, you see? When we contemplate this question, then when we come to the awareness itself, it seems to be operating as if it is the dynamic aspect of it. So this is beautiful. If it is attractive to you, this question 'Who is controlling attention?' I feel is a very beautiful contemplation because in this contemplation, I feel even the sense of separateness in being, the seeing of it, seems to merge and become one.

So it looks like it's more the beingness is trying... can have attention or withdraw attention, but the awareness doesn't have anything to do with that? Because if I stay, it's because I still see... I can still see the withdrawing of the attention and giving the attention to that.

Yes, yes. So the beingness seems to be controlling how much attention goes to what in this phenomenal realm. And yet you also have the experience where we can say, 'Let's bring the attention to being now.' The presence of being is being reported to what? When we bring our attention to being, the presence of beingness is being reported to what?

It's to the one which is watching, like seeing, noticing.

Yes. And this one is what? Is it not awareness?

Yes, that is always there.

So this one that is always there, is it only when our attention is on being that the content of the attention now is being brought to this awareness itself? And all the other time when it is used for phenomenal perceiving, it is taken by the being. You with me in this question?

Yes. And then sometimes like just for a fraction of a second, or maybe I find like there is no me, and then there is a kind of like a very pain which is like this me wants to have a ground to stand on and doesn't find anything. And there is just kind of like so much of fear, so much of pain. It's kind of like the screaming, 'Somebody, I just want to hold something, some point or something, just want to stand on something!'

Yes. At least this pain or this fear is a phenomenal experience. But the one that is screaming and saying 'I am in pain, I have so much fear,' this one is not even a phenomenal experience. You cannot find this one phenomenally also. Only the voice is experienced phenomenally. With the rest of it, the mouth, the face, the body of this non-existent person is not a phenomenal experience. So it uses whatever is coming up in the appearance to try and push its agenda. It's pushing their agenda of personhood, saying, 'See, there's fear. This fear is there, therefore you must be a person. I am feeling fearful.' It's telling you the story without ever showing you the face of this person, isn't it? So now we see that that's why I call the person the second-level delusion or a second-level illusion. We cannot even find it in this realm of phenomena, not in the realm of atoms or molecules, neither in the realm of inner perception. You do not find this person. So that is the biggest irony, isn't it?

Yes.

So truth is just here. Awareness is just here. Being is just here. Then in the light of being, all this phenomenal play comes. But what are we believing ourselves to be? Not that which is always here irrespective of phenomenal play or not, not something even in the phenomenal play, but actually something which is not even here that we are believing ourselves to be—a person. That is Maya. This is the Leela, to have this divine hypnosis that we can believe ourselves to be something which is not even here phenomenally. Forget that which we truly are, which is irrespective of phenomenal appearance or not. That is the funniest thing.

Because Father, like this morning I got up and then I was kind of like... I got up and suddenly like I had a dream. And then because when we dream we don't use any sense organs, it's just like the mind, like the pictures, the thoughts or whatever it is coming. It's the same part which comes up in the waking state. So this mind feels like that one which I saw in the dream, it was a dream and it's nothing real. But this waking or whatever it is blabbering, it's true? I mean, how is it that the same thing which was in the dream and it's just like telling it's the dream, and in the waking state it is blabbering, it's saying like it is real? And there is no difference between that in the dream blabbering and that one which is in the mind. And then these sense organs, like these eyes, it says like whatever you see outside it's not you. So this is of no use then, this eye, then this ear, whatever you are hearing out, it is not you because they are out. Then these are all useless now, these organs. But again this blabbering mind which is saying it is true, it is like telling this dream isn't true, this is true. I mean, everything just looks like something is like a big trap. Somebody is trying to convince something: this is not, this is not, this is not.

Yes. And the way to not fall into the trap is to not believe anything to the mind's endless chain. If you don't believe this blabbering voice, then what is the trouble? Where is the separation?

Yeah, I did realize that I got into the trap and I identified and I felt like trying to do it. And then the simplest thing is like when I follow like 'don't follow the thought,' it's so peaceful. Even if it says like 'try to analyze, do this, this,' because I see like the more the thing is like I really try to analyze something, get into the system, try to understand, that is a trap actually. I got into that trap and thought like, 'Let me go and analyze and find what it is I am.' But it took me to some other world. Let me be with this one, sure, because this one caused some trouble. I know this.

So when we say contemplation here, it is different from how the word contemplation is usually used in the world. In the world, when something is contemplated upon, it usually means that we are sitting and thinking about it. So when you say analysis, contemplation like this, it is sitting and thinking about it. But when we say contemplation, it is not sitting and thinking about it. It is just looking at what is. What is the difference between attention and belief? There is no thinking which can help you with this contemplation. It might help you with the reporting of it, which is not so important actually. So no thinking can help you with the contemplation. It is: what is the difference between attention and belief? Directly it can be seen. So when we say contemplation, we are talking about the direct looking at these primal forces including attention and belief. So when we contemplate into the nature of truth, then it is the looking at the nature of what is without any mental preconceptions, any mental judgments. Just this is beautiful contemplation and it's not tiring. It's not that analyzing mentally saying, 'Okay, this therefore this, therefore this, therefore this must be this.' That is all mental. Not doing this kind of analysis. We're just checking. It is looking very simply, very effortlessly actually. So let go of all sorts of mental analysis and remain with your direct experience, your direct checking. And this goes from this kind of intellectual guru to contemplating of the nature of reality. Thank you, Palak.

Thank you, Father. Thank you. Can I come up? Bring your dog. Hello. Something I've triggered, whisper... I don't know what. Can you hear me? Emily, but just little slow is good. Okay. This conversation, see, it thought maybe it sounds totally crazy now what I'm saying, but I mean, why so much talking about person? It seems like this is some help, really it's just not there. So I don't know, I don't know what I'm saying right now. Doesn't matter. What if she is just what is coming up? For example, before I came out there was intense... you can call it fear or something like this. And this is all I meant, and this is just what is coming up. So this is just what is here. I mean, and that's all. That's just all. And so, person thing, this talking about this person thing... and actually what is here, that's just what is here. Me, and sometimes like now, it just... this is something comes up and the tears come up. Coming up to come up for no reason, nothing actually, but somehow it seems... I don't know what. So just to come up and I don't know anything at all. Just what is here is just the fear sensations and really something like wants to vomit actually. Or this is just what is here. So step out. I don't know what I'm talking. Oh, I am talking.

I just... you can look at this. It's good. It's a good roller surface effect. Saying about psychiatrist's office, psychotherapists... a psychotherapist is gone.

Coming up, to come up for no reason, nothing actually, but somehow it seems—I don't know what—so just to come up. And I don't know anything at all, really. Just what is here is just the fear sensations and really something like wants to vomit actually, or this is just what is here. What? Step out. Nothing. I don't know what I'm talking... oh, I am talking. I just...

You can look at this. This is good. It's a good roller surface effect. Saying about psychiatrist's office, psychotherapists... a psychotherapist has gone to sleep. Good, so good. This is a psychotherapist's office, but it is group therapy now. It is group therapy. We all get together in group therapy. So one comes up and says, 'You know, you're saying all of this, but I feel that I am a cat actually. I believe I'm a cat. This is a cat body, this is cat eyes, I have cat experiences.' Somebody comes up like this. Then what happens? What does the psychotherapist do? Different psychotherapists have different styles. So I will say, 'Can you show me this cat?' you see. And how do you pretend to be a cat? By giving belief to these cat thoughts. So we will deconstruct it over there. We will deconstruct it over there and say the only reason you're presuming yourself to be a cat is because you're believing your cat thoughts. And if you drop them and just see what is here right now, then you see that there is no cat at all. All there is is this presence and the witnessing of this presence.

So this is all that is happening in Satsang. The fresh ones that come have strong beliefs about being a cat, and what is happening from here is different approaches on how to counter this cat identity and to get rid of it. Now, after you see that there never was a cat, the rest of the group will say, 'Why are we talking about the cat? There is no cat. All there is is just this presence.' Because you've seen that there is no cat. But for the one who is deeply believing in the cat, then 'here there is no cat' just sounds like crazy talk, you see. Therefore, it is important sometimes to look at them where they are, meet them where they are, and say, 'Okay, now you say that I am a suffering person. So let's look at this. What is suffering? Inquire together. Let's see if we can find this person.' And that's why we have all these tricks and tools. We say, 'Thousand dollars cash prize to find the person.' It's just like saying, 'Thousand dollars to give you if you show me the cat,' you see. I know it's non-existent. I know I will never lose the thousand dollars, and yet you play with these tools in the Satsang.

So now, there are different types of group therapy sessions. In this group therapy session, what can happen is that I try to meet them at a point where we can start a process of communication which ultimately will become a communion of one. There can also be a different type of group therapy session where we can just sit and say, 'No, there is just no cat. If you believe you're a cat, then you're just stupid.' If it is not getting in, it is also okay. There are some who are attracted to that type of group therapy, which is fine, but that is not the way it is going from here. So although there is no cat, and yet there seems to be a bulk of humanity, it's true, which is pretending to be suffering from this cat identity, and there seems to be room for this expression which is meeting them over there and saying, 'Okay, let's look at this together, shall we?' I am not saying that you're not getting it. Just what is, just is. I'm just saying, 'Okay, you feel that you're suffering from the cat identity. Can we look together for this cat?'

So here, from what flows here, I find this more helpful and more natural as an expression that flows from here. But I'm completely open to all different forms of expression which can play. There are, in fact, most group therapy sessions are evolved around just getting rid of the causes of suffering while keeping the presumption of you being a person still there. So it's even more difficult, you see. Now, this is this type of group therapy, and also group therapy where there is nothing which is spoken at all. In silence, the cat identity dissolves completely. So all expressions of consciousness are unique, including the uniqueness in all expressions of those who have come to the truth of what they are, who've come to the discovery that they are not cats. Even those expressions are unique.

So an offering for inquiry from here would be, because this is the type of Satsang that we have, is that if something is bothered by a lot of talk of person, then what is that? Was something going on here about anyone here?

I just wanted to say, you know, it's just... I'm just... I have no... but I was in a way I was trying to follow, you know, to follow what you were speaking about in the conversation. And I was trying... I know, you know, I know from remembering, I know that I also thought that I was a person. And I was trying to remember how it was somehow to be that, to be able to follow what was... but we know one. And this, what this is, this is just impossible. Or it came out as for me to be impossible to do. And actually, I'm also, you know, I can see it's not about this. I don't know what is going on, you know. I have no idea. I just... the only thing what is happening is just coming up. And even the words which are coming out, it's not about what the word is. Something really behind or whatever you were... I, you know, it's something very intense and energetical going on here. And I have no idea what this is. And I just use this space in a sense to... I don't know what the... this space can you...

Whatever is coming up, it's very good. I don't find any trouble. In fact, it's very good. Even if you go back to that example of group therapy, even the one that is coming with the cat identity... also the ones that are still sitting around have now, to varying degrees, let go of this belief in being a cat. Then it is very helpful. That's why the Sangha is very helpful, because in the Sangha you will meet some who have completely let go of their identity, well, as much as possible, and some who are still at the starting point of completely believing themselves to be the cat, you see. So this creates a supportive environment which is inspiring in a way, because you see that it is possible to function without this identity of a cat and yet to move out and life to function on its own.

So I'm very happy to hear reports from any of you who say, 'But I just find that there is no person here, so why are we still talking about the person?' It's not bad. I don't take it as an insult or something. I'm just saying that yes, this is very good that you say this, because it creates the realm of possibility for those who are new to see that it is possible to drop this sense of personal identity and yet to function. So this is good. But I also felt like I wanted to explain why it is that it is important to meet those who come fresh into Satsang from where they are. So at least from this expression, it is very important to play that way also. It's very important because it is important to have these tools like 'don't believe the next thought,' to know that it is belief which works on thoughts which gives rise to ego.

Otherwise, what can happen is that we might hear some Advaita concept which is very attractive. It can be something like 'nothing ever really happened,' which is the ultimate truth. There is no denying of that. So we can hear 'nothing ever really happened,' and that itself can be heard as a concept and believed in. And then everything which is appearing in our life—unpleasantness, fighting with partner, no money—all of this can happen and the mind is saying, 'But nothing has really happened, nothing has really happened, nothing has really happened.' And this creates a very strong dichotomy and a stronger sense of suffering actually, because as long as it is still mental, then it will not lead to the end of suffering.

So it is very important, at least I feel, to share with you the entire armoury of tools and thorns which are available here to remove these thorns which prevent any of these concepts like 'I am that,' 'nothing has happened,' 'only the truth is,' you know. All of these concepts, it is prevented from taking just mentally and becoming a mental defense for the cat identity. So that is the reason why we take so much time and we break it down and we say, 'This is it: attention and belief.' It is the belief which is adding conditioning, and it is 'I am' that is getting conditioned. Then these conditions are dropping. But ultimately, even this 'I am' you are not. You are the awareness of even this. And I am able to share with you these things about how all of this play is happening so that I feel that once it is seen, once it is imbibed, then not even the most glorious spiritual thoughts will get added to the spiritual ego. It will just be allowed to come and go, and you see the truth of what you are. Your own intuitive presence is able to communicate that without any interference or help from the identity. Yeah. Did we lose Matias? Is there... hello?

You can wake him now. And I'm whatever... one gray, huh? What do you see? You can allow it into the Hangout. Something happened? Yeah.

Yes, true. I got thrown out. So also I just... something wants to speak some more. I have no idea. It's what is going on for some time now is here that it seems to be important to... it's not mine. I have the feeling I know, and I know something or so. But what seems to be important, at least here and in my experience at all, is that really just to be open to whatever comes up. And then there's a lot going on, a lot. You may call it conditioning is playing out in various forms and a lot of triggering happens. And what is just seen with this triggering is what's still believed here. But this belief, what is here is not met. This belief, I don't have the feeling that this belief creates a person or separate something. It's just how it is at the moment. I can only speak from the moment. I don't know, maybe changing somewhere at some point, I have no idea.

But even when belief is here, going to do something, nothing gets created. Even what I experienced was a lot of pain, especially the last days was coming up. Psychological pain, a lot was... and it was just coming up and just felt. And I was looking for suffering and could not find suffering in that sense. It was just seeing the energy of belief in it and how this creates the emotions, and just... there was just openness to it and it went on like this. And I was just watching what is going on. I mean, and it is actually nothing to it. There's no knowing in that sense. So I'm just watching what is going on in that. And everything can rise, even gears, but you can give... it's just seen is that. And when you look at it, it is just crumbling. And I don't know what to say. It feels like that just... and also what is here is just such an intense, you know, laying everything to the feet of the beloved, which is this all the time here, you know. Just like everything is just so much love, you know. It's just and so much joy and laying everything... you know, the seeing if there's resistance or something like that. But really no, there's no... everything just... everything. Oh, I'm just totally now. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Can I make a comment? Thank you. Finally, it is written. Oh, you can ask quickly and then we decree.

Yeah, I'm just over in two minutes. So what I want to ask is that the pure consciousness, can it also be a witness? Pure consciousness, can it be a witness? The phenomenal of seeing?

Still online? Yes. Okay. This who is the witness of phenomena? Phenomenal perception is being perceived by what? Light is being itself, you see. So where it gets confusing is when you look at the seeing, the eyesight. So let's use another sensory perception. When you taste a fruit, suppose you're eating a plum or a grape...

I'm just over in two minutes, so what I want to ask is that the pure consciousness, can it also be a witness? Your consciousness, can it be a witness to the phenomenal perceiving?

Oh, still online, yes. Okay. This, who is the witness of phenomena? Normal perception is being perceived by what? Light is being itself, you see. So where it gets confusing is when you look at the seeing, the eyesight. So let's use another sensory perception. When you taste a fruit, suppose you're eating a plum or a grape, who is experiencing the taste of the silk? Is it not the same being which is experiencing it? So the content simply is witnessed by this being itself. So that's why I use the term phenomenal perceiving, because there is an awareness, there is a knowingness of this phenomenal perceiving happening. This knowingness is untouched by the presence or absence of this phenomenal perceiving. But the phenomenal perceiving is also a functioning of consciousness itself, the being itself. I can see that you're moving, saying something, but your mic is on mute, my dear.

Actually, what I was saying is that let us say there is a screen of the consciousness on which everything appears and the movie is running, but it's a black movie. Like, you know, somehow by mistake it is exposed and there is nothing on this. So it is still running, but I mean there is no appearance as such other than a blankety-blank appearance. So it is not noticeable as such because there is no movement in this. There is no movement in this. So is it not being perceived? Is it not a phenomena? I mean, the consciousness or the beingness, will it not detect it? But there is no visible change because until there is a change, the beingness cannot detect it. Yes, I am not even touching the awareness because I think awareness, it is good, we can look at it.

I can look at this. So nice to be in this agency. You see, there is a knowing that this blank is experienced, which is untouched by this, you see. So we won't, like you said, we don't need to get into that. But right now, if you close your eyes, the blank is seen, is phenomenally perceived to be empty, to be dark, to be black. Go to Nelly, she's been waiting for quite some time. What's doing?

I'm very happy to be here. Pranam. I'm going to know Stephanie, watching a friend. I really have fun. If I go into attraction with dominance, you're not very clear. Can you say again very slowly and as loud as possible? Okay. So being quietly, I have gone on to finding if there is a person who's actually going through attraction with dominance and also like that, no tolerance behind him or for any spiritual story that the mind affects right about. And I know something about something. If I think I reach a point of, you know, far away and I just really want to disclose that, that you don't know, it's not me, it's not what I also. It is perfect. Very, the awareness of how maybe there has been some rejection embodies natural or rejection aside from some levels, maybe a gang to the surgeries or some living conditions and what showed up. And also sometimes I felt I should be Bangalore, I should be responder. You hear me? If I should be a sound and create attention, in fact. So I just let it be and you know, somehow I will come when the time is right, somehow.

Yes, even a photo away. Okay, maybe remute. Yes, it is coming from your mic somehow, somewhere, some noise what might be around you or something. So if it is feeling natural just to be where you are, if phenomenally in Peru you are finding more openness, more spaciousness, more peace is coming to you, then you don't have to think about whether you should be here or not. Nothing is needed actually. And if you have to be here, then automatically your feet will get you here. So you just stay with this. Very good. I'm very happy to hear this. Zero tolerance for any stories, any ideas. So remain in this neutrality, in this emptiness, and let life unfold in its own way, just the way that it wants to. Any time you, I am here, you're welcome to come any time, but don't have to force ourselves. If it is happening naturally, then you will find yourselves here on its own. By the way, there is nothing wrong with one's feet. It is notable and your inquiry is deepening. You are letting go of all ideas about yourself. Ready? Thank you.

Actually, I am not on the chat, so I don't know who is in the queue. Can we resume? And even our heli must have it. We do. Thank you so much. Reflective love for everybody and all my love to everyone. I was just saying that after the broadcast is over, we can bring the computer to everyone who's here and you can say hi to everyone yourself. I feel it's good enough for today. Thank you all so very much for being in Satsang today. Satguru Sri Moojiji Ki Jai. Thank you. Thank you, Stacy, for moderating so much. Up to you. Thank you, my dear. You can end the broadcast now.