Is There Ever a Sense of World When I am Not Present? - 8th Sept. 2016

In deep sleep it doesn't exist, but I'm still there. There's the... still 'I'.

Yeah. Is it that it doesn't exist in deep sleep, or is it that you are just not cognizant of it, that you just can't see it?

Well, you know, I really don't know. It's very good. Case the mind wants to come in and say, 'Oh yeah, but it exists because somebody else over on the other side of the world, you know, is awake and they're on a computer, so it must exist.' But that's just a mind thing. So I have no idea.

You'll know. Okay. So has there been an experience of some other realms which seemed just as real, but now in this waking state we feel to say that they don't exist really?

Yes, yes. Like a dream, for instance.

In a dream, yes. So this dream, you see, does the dream exist without your existence? Is there any qualitative difference in the experience of the dream and the experience of this waking state? So it is experienced exactly in the same way. And therefore, if you were to say that in all that have been experienced here in this waking state, it seems clear to me that the entire dream was a projection within this consciousness. Therefore we see that consciousness has this infinite ability to project time, to project space, to project all the characters possible on the screen of what we call life. Is it? So this entirely, in terms of its tangibility, seems exactly the same. Would that resonate with your experience?

Yes, yes. Many times when I are asked this question, many times we see, we feel like, 'But here I have a memory of yesterday; in a dream it just starts in the middle.' So that is one difference. But when we look at that, we also find that we don't... the dream doesn't start with us saying, 'Oh, where am I? Who am I? Who are these people?' We don't start a dream in amnesia. Do we recognize those people? Sometime we feel like family to us. So there must be the same functioning, same functioning of memory, the same functioning of past ideas about past which also must be available there, isn't it?

So yes. And even in the direct experience of this waking state, we have never experienced this world without first the sense of existence, 'I exist', being there, isn't it? The world only exists for me. Is there ever an experience of the world without there being this sense of existence? 'I am' there never is, is it? Therefore in our experience at least, all that exists in this phenomenal realm relies on first the fact that I must exist, isn't it?

Yes. Good.

So is there ever this experience that even this sense that 'I exist' is not present? In deep sleep, I don't say 'I exist' in deep sleep, it just is. So would you then say that this is the fundamental difference between the sleep state and the waking state? See, now that which is able to discern or is the witness of both of these... because what are we saying? We are saying that suddenly it's like this camera were covered and it becomes all black, and suddenly there's light. If there wasn't a witness of that blackness, would we be able to report that suddenly it becomes black? Yes. So there needs to be a witness even of that, that there was nothing there, you see. And yet at the same time, we see that sleep state means that there is nothing, no thing. Therefore, what is it that I must be if there is nothing that exists in sleep state and yet I am the witness of that?

I'm sorry, can you repeat that last bit one more time?

Yes, yes, yes. We said that sleep state seems like the camera is covered, that's black, you see. And then suddenly waking state comes and this entire world of appearances is back, you see. But to be able to report that there was nothing in sleep, there must be a witnessing of at least that there was nothing. Yes, isn't it? Now what is it that is even beyond this thing and nothing, which must be the witness of this distinction between nothing and something?

Yeah, everything, no thing. Is that... yeah, no, if that's the 'I', that's the true 'I'.

Yes, yes, very good. Now what can happen in the waking or dream state which can actually hurt this 'I'?

Okay, yes. So you see that 'I' on this which is unhurt, you see, it is not tightened. We see like in A Course in Miracles they say, 'Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists, herein lies the peace of God,' isn't it? So this discovery seems to be similar to that because if this is real, then it cannot be threatened, you see. Yes, good. So if I am this 'I', but I want to play the game of suffering, what must I do now to make myself suffer?

Yes, but right now I'm just this 'I'. Ah, so the new set of steps that must need to happen first before even the thoughts can appear, there is no suffering, is it?

There would be no... so this something that appears, this something that appears, you see, is that not a phenomenal wave? It is 'I', but only because I can see it. It's just kind of the same question just in a different way. Yes, yes, yes. Let go to do it. It's only there if it is seen. If I see it, how's there? Otherwise the magnitude of that is its breathtaking. It's like you spoke about conceptually knowing about it, yeah. I feel that there was some of that there, yes. And that's this whole questioning has really like... yeah, just because you know, you know that there's a slogan in the West that says 'a mind is a terrible thing to waste'. It should be the opposite: the mind away. The freshness just keeps growing, yes. And there it's just brighter and brighter. Like today after a silence, who talked about, you know, shining our light, and I looked, it really made an impact. And so, you know, there was space for that this morning and... oh, Father's gone, where did he go? See, it happens to you too.

Yes, and Father, you know, it just seemed that there was space for, you know, just sitting here and then of course the daily routine, you know, the role of mom and householder and all these things, but there was so much freshness about it. Yeah, it was like literally like it was being done for the very first time. Yes, and I've had, you know, little bits of that, but this was very... it was seeing that it felt very deep. And it's interesting how when sitting and shining that light, just all these things try to come up. It's like a show in your mind. It's like, 'Oh, what about this recipe you want to try?' and you give it... even all the beautiful things that people experience, right? Whether it's colors or... it's all just distractions because that mind does not want you to see, it just doesn't. And it's comical, it really is comical. Again, I was laughing. Okay, but this Satsang of having the questions put to us has just been... I can't even put it into words. I feel also it's been very helpful, very helpful. Yes, thank you so much. Thank you and everything for their honesty and just, you know, frankness. Just yeah, it's so beautiful. Thank you.