A Realization Made Into a Concept Doesn´t Bring Freedom - 18th July 2016

What I am longing to hear from all of you is this perfume of it being the discovery. It is here. Yes, there is no concern here about suffering. There is nobody here. There is nothing which touches anything here. Even belief, disbelief, attention—all of these things are not my concern anymore. God is playing in the light, God is playing of this. Go into this and see whether this is coming from a sense of just openness. And then these words, 'don't believe your next thought,' will just be heard like music, you know? There's nothing to do about it because you're not even identified with consciousness to believe or not believe. What is the best test of that? If you find that there is still the sense of suffering, then it cannot happen without our belief in some idea and some thoughts. So, it's very good if you open like this and we keep checking. So, the first thing to check was whether this is a discovery and we're sharing with the sense of wonder that, 'Oh, there's nobody here to even believe or not believe,' you see? It's like this: 'Wow, this is so amazing, so beautiful.' Or is it some sort of independence theater, a discovery or a defense?

Well, what was happening was there was so much suffering and I was walking and I've been doing everything, like inquiring and all the pointers that you give. And then suddenly it just dropped and there was the seeing from the place of... well, from everything. And this just absolute laughter of just how all of that effort of inquiring and not believing your next thought and doing a mala and how all of that was just completely beside the point. And it was just like, well, there's nothing. It either arises in spontaneity, which will supposedly lead to this seeing from the truth, but actually what we're seeing is that it can just drop regardless of everything. For a minute I was just like questioning what even satsang is. Even this is part of the whole play as well. And there was kind of this frustration because it was just so... well, there's nothing I can do. There's nothing I can do. And if I'm identified, then that's what is part of the script for Zia. And it just seemed like, well, so I'm going to suffer then. I'm going to suffer if there's suffering pre-programmed into this one's experience, and it's going to drop when it's going to drop, you know?

Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so this is a very important point and it is a bit subtle. So just let's all stay with this for a minute because it's really, really important. And I want all of you to hear this because when it is happening to you, you will be able to spot it then. So when there is suffering, what can happen is three or four alternatives. First is when there is suffering, then we can keep believing our thoughts and our suffering thoughts, and then we can go for a drain down our sorrows. We can do various things. Mostly when you're not in satsang, this is how you get over suffering, isn't it? We keep thinking about it, try to come to some mental resolution of the suffering, or try to distract our minds, try to get away from the situation, try to feel better. We do all of these things, yeah? So this is the first.

The second is that when there is suffering, then the words which we hear in satsang, they come. And they're coming and saying, 'Don't believe your next thought,' 'Who am I?', 'Who is it?', 'Can I find the sufferer?' And when it is looked into like this, you find that many times the suffering energy of the ideas that were being bought, thereby creating the resistance and suffering in the first place, they themselves start to dissolve. So this is the second alternative which deepens our recognition and deepens our dropping of the conditioning.

The third thing that can happen is that we're using the words of satsang just conceptually, and you find that there is no relief coming from the words. There is nothing that is really helping. And then a concept comes like, 'There is nothing to be done' or 'Nobody here to do anything at all.' And this in itself is a spacious concept the first time. So this gives some relief then. Because this gives some relief, a sense of relief comes and we see that there is nobody here to do anything. Then the mind plays the trick and says, 'Okay, now you must just hold on to this,' you see? So that which was just insight from a pure seeing—that there is no sufferer, there is nobody here who can do anything in the first place—that itself, the mind tries to make it into a concept. And then this concept itself gets used to be a defense against all of that which we heard which led to the insight in the first place, you see?

So the point of all of the pointings is to bring you to this insight into the reality of what you are. And when it comes, you find that there is nobody here, there was no doer at all, you see? And it comes with a sense of relief. But it is not the concept which led to the relief; it is the insight which led to the relief, isn't it? So the trouble with this sometimes—and I've seen it, in fact, quite often now—is that once it is mistaken that it is the concept which brought about the freedom from the relief, then that becomes a state of a lot of dichotomy. So when next time the suffering comes and we say, 'Oh, but there is nobody here to do anything, I cannot do anything at all, nothing is happening to me,' but actually the sense of suffering is still being experienced, and we get frustrated that the concept is not working. In fact, it is leading to more dichotomy within me, you see? Then it becomes a very stuck sort of state because the suffering is coming and also the concept, which is ultimately true, is trying to fight that state of suffering. So it's like you get stuck in this, as Guruji says, the snake and the mongoose. You get stuck like that, you see?

So to stay with the recognition that there is nobody here, to stay with the insight that there is nobody here, is different from the concept that there is nobody here. And it is not the concept which will help, but the insight. Now all the pointings of satsang are used so that we can come to this same space of insight about who we are. See, now why I am cautioning all of you against this one is that many times you get confused about this and we take on the concept itself that there is nobody here as a defense mechanism. See, that's why I said it's very important to keep checking: 'Am I sharing it as a discovery thing, like there is nobody here, I found that there is nothing to be done, it just drops itself? Or am I saying that, oh, but you know, it is not at all helpful what we shared in satsang because actually there is nothing that can be done?' Because then it's conceptual. Because what happens is that you know for yourself that these pointers—'don't believe your next thought,' 'are you aware now?', 'can you stop being?'—all of these are very helpful.

So if you find that something is trying to defend the concept of the insight that you received versus this feeling happy and grateful for all of those things which got us to the point of this insight, then we must see whether something is trying to get hold as a mental idea. And then you will be able to smell the difference. So when you say, 'Yes, actually there is nothing ever to be done, nobody here to do anything, everything is the play of Zia, it's just happening on its own,' you see? It's just happening on its own—the suffering and the dropping, all of this. You see it so beautifully that there was nobody here to do anything at all, you know? But in that, it will not come with this sense that, 'Okay, but even satsang is not needed,' you see? Because everything is happening.

Mental idea, and then you will be able to smell the difference. So when you say, 'Yes, actually there is nothing ever to be done, nobody here to do anything, everything is the play of Maya, it's just happening on its own,' you see? It's just happening on its own. The suffering and the dropping, all of this, you see? It seems so beautifully that there was nobody here to do anything at all, you know. But in that, it will not come with this sense that, 'Okay, but even satsang is not needed,' you see? Because everything is happening on its own, you see. So although that we went open cycle—sorry, I have to stand up because I'm live on Wi-Fi right by the window and I missed half of what you said because I'm moving. Sorry.

But I really would say, and there was definitely that moment of relief when it would drop and I was just like, 'Oh well, there's all of that inquiring and not believing that I thought I'm feeling all the freaky things and letting them course through the body and doing all of that stuff.' It was seen that all of that doesn't really have any relevance because it's like what do you say, the bird in the coconut? It just seems to be cause and effect, but really it has nothing to do with it. And so there is this sense of just like personal frustration now because now I'm back identified as Zia. Not really, but more so than I was. And it's just like, well, the thoughts come, I'm going to suffer. I'm going to suffer if I'm going to believe this thought, then I'm going to believe this thought. And if I'm going to inquire, then that's going to arise spontaneously. So there is this energy of like, 'I can't do anything.' I literally can't do anything, and it's completely the will of God. And in that, there is this truth, but there's also this knowing that identity will play if it wants to and suffering will happen if it has to. Yes, yes. Sorry, Father, I feel like a complete challenging jack, but it's not something...

All right, it's good. Like, this is very important that you come to certainty with all of this. It's very, very important. Now let's look together and see whether once it is accepted that everything is the will of God, can there really be suffering? No, not in the ultimate reality. There's no suffering. No, no, even phenomenally. Now we see that, okay, everything is the will of God, you see? That means we've opened ourselves out. There is no resistance. It is simple allowing, isn't it? Because we are allowing the will of God, there is nobody separate to anything at all anyway. The fists are completely open, you see? Now you will find that without resisting that, without creating a closure—somehow we are now closing up in some way—really the sense of suffering cannot be. The sense of pain can come, the sense of even emotional pain can come, but to see that 'I am suffering' cannot happen, you see? It is all the will of God.

Now, although the mind will come and say, 'But yes, but even suffering has to come, even that is the will of God,' it is actually a sort of an oxymoron to say that. Everything is the will of God is the state of complete openness, and in a state of complete openness, we cannot find ourselves suffering, you see? So just remain open like that and see if it is possible for any suffering to come. How do you define suffering? Because you said emotional pain, and emotional pain I get.

How I define suffering? Yeah, emotional pain just means that there's a sense of the urge to be with someone or something like that, or the sense of hurt about what somebody said without it actually yet translating into something which is taken mentally or something like that. If you have a phone interaction or suppose I say something to you very mean right now, some sense of pain will come without it even being taken mentally, you see? So that is what you would mean by a pain. But for it to become suffering, you have to get the 'I' into the picture, you have to get identity into the picture. But if there is no 'I', everything is the will of God, God is doing and God is experiencing the experience, you see? So if you are there, if you are open like that, then actually it is not suffering.

If there is suffering, then we must inquire into who is the sufferer, who is doing the inquiry, or we must at least remind ourselves that it is all the will of God. And you will find that if this is coming from a place of insight, it is the suffering which dissolves. Yeah. Otherwise, what can happen is that we can take it conceptually that all is the will of God and even if suffering is coming, there's nothing that I can do about it. I have heard many speak like this, and this is when this concept 'it's all the will of God' is just taken mentally. Once it is seen, once it is our living experience that everything is the will of God, then we cannot say everything is the will of God and yet I am suffering, except momentarily.

But Father, mmm, but then this has been seen many times here and yet still there's suffering.

Yes, yes, because it is not important what has been seen. It is only important what you are seeing now. You can, like we spoke once earlier also, we cannot refer to past recognition. We must rely on our present living experience. And as you're opening out like this, these are very beautiful words, you see? Everything is the will of God, everything is the will of God. Then there is no 'me'. God is the doer, God is the experiencer. Now show me something.

Yeah, well, I guess it's just when I have like a really heavy kind of feeling in the body comes, or when like a huge anxious energy comes, that there's a labeling of that as suffering. But even when that is flowing through the body or being experienced, it's just known that it's not true. It's known that the thoughts accompanying these feelings and sensations aren't true and that everything is scripted and like pre-programmed. But yet, there's a labeling of that as suffering and it doesn't seem that there can be anything.

What you say very rightly is that the labeling of that as suffering, actually the labeling itself is suffering. The minute we label it, it is suffering, you see? Now, of course, it is completely God's will whether to label or not, you see? So this conversation, which is God reminding himself not to label, you see? Because if you say that nothing was here to do, I have never been talking to Zia in the first place, isn't it? Yeah, I know there is nothing for Zia to do because Zia doesn't exist. Now, why does God need a reminder for himself? God made it like that, doesn't he? He doesn't need a reminder. This is not... okay, somehow... come on, you know, it's really good. I have also contemplated this question many times. So what is it that God would need a reminder? It is just that way that this play is designed. That God comes to this space in the play where God is reminding himself not to believe his thoughts, God is reminding himself to inquire into who he is or she is, you see? It is the way the play is designed.

But what I am questioning with you again is that aspect of the play in which the insight takes on the role of being concepts and they come into some sort of a ceasefire. Maybe they come into some sort of a ceasefire with your suffering and say, 'You see, I am going to suffer only if it is destined and Zia's horoscope, then suffering will happen. Who am I to do?' Because then if you are looking at that situation from the perspective of Zia again, then that is trouble, you see? Yes, that's exactly it. It's not about this one also that when that urge in that emptiness, it can seem so wobbly and fearful. And sometimes it can be that, you know, our life situations are giving us so much trouble that an idea comes along which seems like it is the truth, you see? So another tip for you is that if you find yourself trying to just rely on an idea instead of the idea being a pointer to something, the idea itself will not be the end of suffering, you see? It must point to something, it must remove some ideas, some concepts. Only then the idea is useful.

So that question which was, 'Who's here to do the inquiry?' and what was the answer? There's no one here to take inquiry. And who is the one that is speaking these words? Jennifer? It's just a voice coming out. So would you say that you exist or no? We can't say I exist as a separate entity, contract in the body which makes me feel confined here, you see. So would you say that in the sleep state and the waking state, that in the waking state there is a body and then there is a you? It is a complete association to your question. I can't hear a word of it. Can you repeat it?

Yes, I said that we were attacked. Yes, haha. How did it happen? You said something, huh? What did you say? Is it how? How does this happen? You were just here. I told you not to let me go. So this, I was saying that what do I do? Because I know everyone here and I know that if I'm going to suffer, I'm going to suffer. And this one who knows no one is here is which one? I don't know.

How could you say? Suppose you met someone on the street and they said, 'Oh, I know there's no one here,' but then wouldn't you say, 'But who's the one that knows?' But you can't say who's the one that knows. You can't see, you see? Say, how do you see the one that knows? No. Do you mean not phenomenally? But you are aware of the existence of this one? No. Well, even non-phenomenally, there's like this energy in this other element I can see, but that's not me because that can be perceived. But I always get confused when someone says, 'Can you see it non-phenomenally?' because I think, 'What is that energy that I can see?' But then even that is perceived.

Okay, so when I say, 'Are you aware now?' what happens? Emma laughs. And this is your... you sure you are aware? I know, huh? I'm not aware? Yeah, hmm. And you see, are you aware now? You say awareness is here. Yes, yes. So this seeing that awareness is here, or this statement that awareness is here, is it based on a concept or is it based on direct experience? There is a direct experience that there's just openness of a situation of the mind, the emotions, of the body, of everything all being inside of me. There is this awareness. Yes, but where do we see it? But do we not say there's a tasting of it or something? We use a specific word, awareness. What does that mean?

I don't know, Father. Yes, but I'm open to looking. Yep. I don't know what you mean by your question. I feel like you're trying to trick me. I wouldn't. Are you telling somebody? I just feel like because this is... you're channeling. This happened last time with Mooji when I said it wasn't fine, valuable. Your voice is breaking open here, Father, and now you're trying to put me back into the mind and I'm angry about it because there's no one here. Why are you trying to tell me awareness? Sorry.

Yeah, yeah. So the one that is clear that nobody's here, can that be attacked? No, no. But this doesn't... this isn't happening. This isn't real, this character. Oh, it's not. If I'm like flipping between the two, it's really confusing. Oh, Father, what's going on?

It is in moments like this that I hope that you love me enough to remain open to me, you see? There is this sense like even satsang is a lie. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. That it is now that even when we come to the point where even my words start to seem like some sort of attack, then—and very quickly this will translate into, if it is allowed to go like this, it will translate into—'But I don't want to inquire anymore. I don't want to look with you,' you see? Because it is attacking me. But what I am trying to tell you is that if there is a sense that 'I am being attacked,' you see, then are we open to inquiring into the question: What is it that I am holding on to which now feels like it's being attacked even in satsang? Yeah, I'm really acting. I'm very clear into that. Very good. Hey, good. So the way is, what can happen is that around an Advaita concept, our mind will make some defenses very strongly, yeah? And then even though it will not resonate for some time, it will seem like you want to break or you want...

What I'm trying to tell you is that if there is a sense that 'I am being attacked,' then are we open to inquiring into the question: What is it that I am holding on to which now feels like it's being attacked, even in satsang?

Yeah, I'm really acting. I'm very clear into that. Very good.

Hey, good. So, what can happen is that around an Advaita concept, our mind will make some defenses very strongly, you see? And then, even though it will not resonate for some time, it will seem like you want a break or you want some space because the insights that you're coming to are giving you some sense of peace from the suffering or something like that. So, you block concepts. Is that a fair summary?

Again for me, because you cut out. If both of us drop all our concepts, is that a...?

Yeah.

I'm sorry, Father. I don't know what just happened. I'm so sorry.

No, it's okay. This is good. I'm pretty happy with your tone. They help you in a certain way. Yes, you remember when we spoke about this? Okay, we can talk about this for a minute and then go back to what I was saying earlier, which is that you remember what I was saying while you were here? That sometimes there can be so much suffering and we don't want to go back into that state of suffering, and sometimes it feels like I found a lifeline in a concept, you see? And if anyone comes to you and says, 'Let's enquire into this concept together,' it will start seeming like an attack. We had this conversation while you were here, isn't it? Because the state of suffering is too much, we want to hang on to something. And I'm not saying leave anything, actually. I am just saying: Can we look together? Even the invitation to look together starts seeming like an attack to you because the state of suffering is scary. But no concept is the truth. All concepts must be used to bring us to this openness, this neutrality, this nakedness. So, if we find ourselves defending something, if we find ourselves feeling attacked, then we must be open to inquiring: What is it that I am holding on to? Without that, how can you be attacked? What part of you can be attacked?

Nothing can be attacked unless I'm holding on to some sort of sense that I am this person.

Yes. Or even the idea that 'I am nothing.' If it is being held on to, then it will seem like it's being attacked. Like you were saying, 'You are going to make something out of me again.' Yes? You really feel I would do something like that?

Mind, I'm sorry. It is a... that something which is trying to be made is only when we are holding on to any concept, including the concept that 'I am nothing,' you see? So, what is fighting back, saying 'You are trying to make something out of me'? Actually, the one that is pretending to be this 'nothing-something' is the one that we are inquiring into. But it is still... it will still drop.

When it drops, there's like all of this drama that's just gone on between this conversation. That all had to happen. That all just had to happen like that. There's no other way for it today.

Oh, yes, yes, yes. This is true. All of this in the play has to happen as the way it is meant to happen. And there is huge relief in that. But also the thought that there's nothing that I can do, and if it drops, it's going to drop, and if I... is that good?

This is very good. It's very good. So, this 'I' that sneaked into this—which one is it? Thoughtless belief. This is the see-heaven, yes? So, be this invitation to check on who is this 'I,' you see? So, the difference between traditional Advaita and newer Advaita is that this sense of 'I' which is there—'there is nothing I can do about it'—this in traditional Advaita is constantly inquired into. Who is this 'I'? There is openness to this inquiry to see that there is nobody here who is suffering, nobody here who is the doer. We have not believed saying that 'there is nothing I can do' because this one doesn't exist. 'There's nothing I can do' would mean that I am powerless against this, isn't it?

Yeah, I feel completely powerless, like this, completely out of control. And not in a bad way, but just like completely out of control. Like I cannot control what is coming out of my mouth. I can't control the way I just reacted to you, which I'm really sorry about.

It's completely fine, my dear. I am so happy you come and do it. You know, it's very important, like I've been saying this, that it's very important when you are feeling like this to keep coming. This is as I said, that in these moments I just hope that there's enough love and devotion here so that we can be open to continue to communicate. Because in this moment it will seem like everything I'm saying is an attack, without the openness to check: But what is it that can be attacked? How is it that the one who's pointing me to this nothingness would now be trying to make something out of me, you see? The mind will say, 'Maybe I am playing, huh? Maybe I cannot see.' Yes? But who are you in this picture? The one who can seem to be busy and nothing? I exist. There is nobody here. But there was a sense which was saying that 'I am disturbed, powerless, nobody in this picture, so I will leave for God to do what he wants with this life.' It's not like that. The discovery must be that I am this nothingness and my dynamic aspect, which is called God, is playing this life. It is not this powerlessness. This talking point of satsang cannot be the discovery in satsang.

I can just feel like huge suffering in the body now.

Yes, so don't run from that.

I've done all of this, Father. I sat through hours of...

Yeah, don't refer to the past. Don't refer to the past.

It just, you know, all of this transcendence doesn't actually seem to do anything because you can transcend and transcend and transcend, but then have a moment here seeing and realize that all of the transcending is all part of the play and it's all written like that.

Yes, but if you're having to refer to the past moment of seeing that 'I saw this insight, it was all part of the play,' and 'I'm just going to rely on that and use that as a band-aid for every time suffering is coming,' it is only going to cause more and more trouble. It will not be the freedom from suffering which it is promising to be right now. If it is true, why isn't it here now? Why do you have to refer to the past transcendence or that moment of insight? How does that moment of insight differ from this moment of insight?

I don't know, because it's been written like this. I'm meant to be feeling happy now, I'm meant to be identified now, I'm meant to be that way. That's the way. If God didn't want it, I wouldn't. It's okay. It would just wake up. You just wake up. It's God. It needs to be reminded. I'm sorry, Father, but I just... how can I see so clearly and then be so deluded? It must only be because God wants to be deluded.

Yes, everything is only because God wants it to be that way. This is visiting. It's because people, but in time, Michael. So, it's God what went to looking at why right now there can be no one found when it's looked for. And who makes that discovery?

I can't say.

So, this—that there is nobody found—is it your finding or no?

I didn't name this finding.

Yes, but there is something which is finding this, isn't it? You're not making a statement that there is nobody here; there is a discovery of this, isn't it? And it's decided, and I ran myself surprises. He cited a story.

Yes, there's an awareness to this presence. And the one that is aware of this awareness of presence, is it different from the awareness itself?

No, it's there. So, there is awareness and there is presence. Is there any other entity here? Any other one? Is any entity or some object here which you could call you?

Sensations, yes. Sensations.

Those are part of your presence, isn't it? What do you see? Is there somebody here who could suffer? And when I can suffer, that relates the feelings. The first initiated with suffering are... no, I'm suffering them. There's someone experiencing them. This thing, they're being experienced. There can be a diet, but the quick actions in the body, that's just a memory. Is there a sense that some sense of this presence, like too much suffering or something like that, you're aware of this or no? This is your direct living experience, isn't it? It is not from this conceptual word that you're speaking now. Even a nervous system awareness of this contraction of energy to move the shape body, and I'd like the sensation suffering, but even that was witnessed. That was becoming back, hit me to this kind of pretend pass through the shape, and there was another to go but not identify with that energy. And the one that's suffering, the one that's looking like an idiot, looking at nothing, was being watched.

Yes, all of this is being watched now. If the sensation is coming, even if attention goes to it, could you say that you can identify with it just with your attention, you see? So, identification cannot be caused just with our attention. Now, the mind will come and say, 'Yes, all of this is actually happening to you.' Now, what is God deciding to do now? Because God knows that it is not happening. It is seen that there are some sensations appearing, and nothing is happening to the awareness, and nothing is happening even to the presence in that way. These thoughts are just allowed to come and go now. If I was to say there is no awareness, what would you say?

It has to be some other word for business.

Yeah, exactly. If I were to really just say that there is no such thing as awareness, then if I said that there is no awareness, it is just a functioning of your body-mind, what would you say?

I think what was why everybody mind, yes, he could.

And if I was to say there is awareness itself does not exist?

It exists.

Very good. And if I was to say, 'But you are not this awareness'?

What knows it? It's not the awareness, because you have to be aware that something is other. We'll see many other.

Yes. And if I was to say, 'But you can actually separate yourself out from this awareness'?

Devices in it.

And if I was to say that this awareness that you are can suffer?

To say that this awareness has a past and future, it's a lie.

Now, if I was to say that this awareness has something to transcend?

Never had any. Completely, complete, beyond complete.

This is another meaning of complete. He could take to find your way back to Bangalore soon. You don't go out wait on me now. I'm so happy you came to satsang today. Very, very happy with this. Very, very happy would make you.